Re: [Paw] Towards a PAW WG

[<[e-mail]>]

Thanks for your response, Pascal.

Spinning off from 6tisch is a good starting point, I think. And
if we are using non-IP encapsulation, we need so many components
to discuss and 6tisch WG cannot cover that.


> The IESG is polling for BoF requests for Prague. Would you be interested in seeing that happen?

Yes, I'm very interested in PAW BoF!


Best regards,
Toshio Ito

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:59 PM
> To: ito toshio(伊藤 俊夫 ○ＲＤＣ□ＮＳＬ) <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> Subject: RE: Towards a PAW WG
> 
> Great question, Toshio : )
> 
> The architecture of 6TiSCH is global but the work there always focused on IPv6 (best effort) over 15.4 TSCH.
> I do not see 6TiSCH rechartering for DetNet type.
> I see PAW as a spin off from 6TISCH, focusing on the deterministic side of the 6TiSCH architecture, and
> extending to other MAC/PHYs, e.g., work starting at 802.11 in RTA/EHT.
> 
> And yes, I see PAW taking over the deterministic wireless data model work that started in 6TiSCH and stalled
> there. That is the last point below. We also have to consider what the detnet data plane formats becomes
> in a GMPLS environment where the flow ID and possibly the sequence can be implicit, derived from the timeslot.
> 
> The IESG is polling for BoF requests for Prague. Would you be interested in seeing that happen?
> 
> Pascal
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: mardi 18 décembre 2018 08:46
> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> > Subject: RE: Towards a PAW WG
> >
> > Hi Pascal,
> >
> > I'm interested in DetNet on wireless, especially on IEEE 802.15.4 TSCH. I think
> > some features in TSN (e.g. 802.1Qch) can be mapped to TSCH thanks to its
> > time-aware nature. To do that kind of mapping, we need its data model and
> > management interface for it.
> >
> > I have a question, though. Isn't PAW covered by 6tisch WG?
> > draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture-19 talks about deterministic wireless networks for
> > industrial applications, centralized TSCH scheduling, and packet replication.
> > There are some expired drafts (*1) for centralized management. I don't know
> > what's happened to those drafts, but I thought 6tisch WG would eventually
> > work on centralized networks in future. Isn't it gonna happen?
> >
> > If we are to expand our focus to include 802.11 radio, probably 6tisch WG
> > cannot cover that.
> >
> >
> > *1: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6tisch-6top-interface-04
> >     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6tisch-coap-03
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Toshio Ito
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Paw <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert
> > > (pthubert)
> > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 10:19 PM
> > > To: [e-mail]
> > > Subject: [Paw] Towards a PAW WG
> > >
> > > Dear all:
> > >
> > > At the PAW bar BOF in Bangkok, we found common interests in discussing
> > > matters similar to DetNet but with a focus on wireless.
> > >
> > > What’s so special with wireless? Well, in very short, scheduling
> > > brings all the benefits it does on wires, and more. Scheduling can
> > > enable multi channel operations, energy savings, G-MPLS forwarding
> > operations with schedule-based Replication (overhearing), Elimination and
> > Reordering.
> > >
> > > But the methods to build a Predictable and Available Wireless network
> > > will differ from those used by DetNet/TSN on wires because the medium can
> > be shared, lossy, and broadcast.
> > >
> > > This is why we also discussed the need of a group that would
> > > specifically address the PAW problem. What would such a group do?
> > >
> > > Quite simply PAW would aim at providing latency and throughput
> > > guarantees over a set of radios to be defined, and collaborate with the groups
> > in charge of these radios. In more details:
> > >
> > > - Which radios? There are 2 elephants in that room, the adult, ieee
> > > std 802.15.4 TSCH for which we have RFC 7554, and the young, ieee sig
> > > 802.11 RTA, for which we’d need an informational doc explaining what’s
> > > special and interesting about it. Also I’m hearing through the grapevine that
> > the German DLR is developing a new radio that could become a standard for
> > plane communication.
> > >
> > > - there is a need to extend the DetNet use cases draft with a wireless
> > > twist. Cover real time gaming, in cars and in planes automation,
> > > conferencing, building automation, and industrial process control and factory
> > automation.
> > >
> > > - there is work that is discussed at BIER and ROLL about methods that
> > > could provide extensive time and space diversity using synchronized
> > > overhearing and elimination, as well as OAM techniques to optimize the use
> > of the possibly extensive replication that can be needed to provide high
> > delivery ratio with bounded latency.
> > > This work needs a central hosting.
> > >
> > > - 6TiSCH provides IP best effort over a PAW-capable radio, but did not work
> > on the deterministic flows.
> > > We are missing the data model to control the GMPLS forwarding over
> > > complex Tracks that is described in the 6TiSCH architecture. PAW would be
> > the natural place to do that.
> > >
> > > - ... <anything I missed?>
> > >
> > > All and all, there is quite a bit of work ahead. But then, we need to
> > > show that we can build a critical mass of people to form a WG. This is where
> > this list comes into play.
> > >
> > > So please respond, indicate what radio we could work on, what network
> > > layer problem we need to solve, what amount of energy you are willing to
> > make this happen. Don’t be shy!!
> > >
> > > Many thanks in advance...
> > >
> > > Pascal
> > >
> > > --
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> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw