Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW

"Georgios Z. Papadopoulos" <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr> Fri, 05 April 2019 12:44 UTC

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From: "Georgios Z. Papadopoulos" <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 14:43:52 +0200
Cc: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Xavi Vilajosana Guillen <xvilajosana@uoc.edu>, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, "paw@ietf.org" <paw@ietf.org>, "Mukesh Taneja (mutaneja)" <mutaneja@cisco.com>, AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>
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To: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>
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Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
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+1 for RAW, although I will miss the SPWAN's logo :-)

Georgios


> On Apr 5, 2019, at 14:33, Prof. Diego Dujovne <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl> wrote:
> 
> All,
>      Pascal's question just kept me thinking what a RAW network
> would look like. From the meaning of RAW, I think that what we
> are looking for is totally the opposite: A predictable behavior
> in terms of reliability and delay. If this is not taken into account,
> then RAW sounds simple and easy to remember. 
>      Regards,
> 
>                                 Diego
> 
> Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 09:21, Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr <mailto:theoleyre@unistra.fr>> a écrit :
> I have a slight preference for RAW.
> 
> Fabrice
> 
> 
>> Le 5 avr. 2019 à 14:19, Mukesh Taneja (mutaneja) <mutaneja@cisco.com <mailto:mutaneja@cisco..com>> a écrit :
>> 
>>  
>> I am for something like – SRAW with S from SPWAN (for Scheduled).
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Mukesh
>>  
>> From: Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Xavi Vilajosana Guillen <xvilajosana@uoc.edu <mailto:xvilajosana@uoc.edu>>
>> Date: Friday, 5 April 2019 at 5:42 PM
>> To: AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr <mailto:vincent.audebert@edf.fr>>
>> Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com <mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>>, "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl <mailto:diego..dujovne@mail.udp.cl>>, "paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>" <paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
>>  
>> Same here. RAW is shorter and easier to spell. 
>>  
>> regards
>> Xavi
>>  
>> Missatge de AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr <mailto:vincent.audebert@edf.fr>> del dia dv., 5 d’abr. 2019 a les 14:01:
>> Hi Pascal, All,
>>  
>> I am in favor of RAW.
>>  
>> Regards
>>  
>> Vincent
>>  
>> <image001.png>
>>  
>> Vincent AUDEBERT
>> Research Engineer
>> EDF – R&D Lab Saclay
>> MIRE
>> 7 Bd Gaspard Monge
>> 91120 PALAISEAU
>>  
>> vincent.audebert@edf.fr <mailto:vincent.audebert@edf.fr>
>> Phone : + 33 1 78 19 45 64
>> Mobile : + 33 6 14 13 23 22
>> <image002.gif>    
>> Un geste simple pour l'environnement, n'imprimez ce message que si vous en avez l'utilité.
>>  
>>  
>> De : Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>] De la part de pthubert@cisco.com <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>
>> Envoyé : vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:59
>> À : Prof. Diego Dujovne <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl <mailto:diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>>; Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com <mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>>
>> Cc : Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>; Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>
>> Objet : Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
>>  
>> Votes are still open. Do we keep SPAWN or do we jump to RAW.
>> What does sound right, a SPAWN or a RAW Network?
>>  
>> All the best,
>>  
>> Pascal
>>  
>> From: Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Prof. Diego Dujovne
>> Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:51
>> To: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com <mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>>
>> Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>; Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>;paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>; Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>
>> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming
>>  
>> Pascal,
>>            Shall we split this e-mail between the renaming
>> topic and the reliability metrics discussion? I think both
>> items are really relevant to the group and deserve their
>> individual space.
>> Regards,
>>  
>>                              Diego Dujovne
>>  
>> Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 07:03, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com <mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei..com>> a écrit :
>> There is a good book on reliability by Michael Tortorella. The book is "Reliability, Maintainability, and Supportability: Best Practices for Systems Engineers". It is available from Wiley.
>> 
>> Hesham
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf..org <mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:55 AM
>> To: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>
>> Cc: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hello Juliusz:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Actually the theoretical work has been done a while ago, as  a response to your question at the mike when I suggested you dig for MTBF or similar (MTTF, MTBE...). We tend to express a network form of MTBF in a number of 9s. Like five 9s would indicate that the Mean Successful Transmissions Between Errors is 99999. A number of use cases would thrive on 1% loss as long as losses are always well spaced so the missing points can be recovered. This can be true for an industrial control loop, and false for burning a master video. The N 9s are there to make the occurrence of P (say, 4) losses in a row very rare, like a probability of 1/10^(N*P). But the 9s are for unrelated errors and fail to convey a rare burst of errors with a common cause, which is what really hurts. These things happen on radios and that's why we are after diverse paths etc...
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> There's enough stats for is inhttps://ftp.automationdirect.com/pub/Product%20Reliability%20and%20MTBF.pdf <https://ftp.automationdirect.com/pub/Product%20Reliability%20and%20MTBF.pdf> to take us a long way. Our problem is to migrate the concept from a product to a sequence of nodes and then to more complex structures. This could be refined in an academic paper, I expect that'd be a great topic, and then an RFC would summarize that.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> What I'd like to see is an informational RFC that presents wireless reliability in a way that can be consumed by the IETF members, and provides terminology that can be referred in our specs. You seemed curious about the topic; that's quality number one for achieving great results : )
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Pascal
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> More links:
>> 
>> http://www.bb-elec.com/Learning-Center/All-White-Papers/Fiber/MTBF,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf <http://www.bb-elec.com/Learning-Center/All-White-Papers/Fiber/MTBF,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf>
>> https://books.google.nl/books?id=rNLSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=reliability+MTBF+MTBE+papers&source=bl&ots=L7BsInfaO3&sig=ACfU3U0kYd1lGRyRR_aD5AET9LOI8ZfZWg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisr-LirLjhAhWPZ1AKHe8yARwQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ <https://books.google.nl/books?id=rNLSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=reliability+MTBF+MTBE+papers&source=bl&ots=L7BsInfaO3&sig=ACfU3U0kYd1lGRyRR_aD5AET9LOI8ZfZWg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisr-LirLjhAhWPZ1AKHe8yARwQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ>
>>  
>> 
>> https://www.dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability <https://www..dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability>
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> 
>> > From: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>
>> 
>> > Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 01:40
>> 
>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>
>> 
>> > Cc: Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>; Lou Berger 
>> 
>> > <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming
>> 
>> >
>> 
>> > > We'll also need to provide a definition of reliability and
>> 
>> > > availability and as we discussed, 5nines is probably not the only or
>> 
>> > > even best way to express any of that. Juliusz actually raised the
>> 
>> > > point and I hope he continues on that path and even produces a spec for us.
>> 
>> >
>> 
>> > I'm flattered you think so, but I'm pretty sure I'm not competent. 
>> 
>> > You'd need someone with more of a background in probability and statistics.
>> 
>> >
>> 
>> > -- Juliusz
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> --
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>>  
>> --
>> DIEGO DUJOVNE
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>> Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones
>> Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile
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>>  
>> -- 
>> Dr. Xavier Vilajosana
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> 
> 
> -- 
> DIEGO DUJOVNE
> Profesor Asociado
> Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones
> Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile
> www.ingenieria.udp.cl <http://www.ingenieria.udp.cl/>
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