Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW

AUDEBERT Vincent <> Fri, 05 April 2019 12:01 UTC

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From: AUDEBERT Vincent <>
To: "" <>, "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <>, Hesham ElBakoury <>
CC: Lou Berger <>, "" <>, Juliusz Chroboczek <>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" <>
Thread-Topic: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
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Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 12:01:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
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Hi Pascal, All,

I am in favor of RAW.




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Un geste simple pour l'environnement, n'imprimez ce message que si vous en avez l'utilité.

De : Paw [] De la part de
Envoyé : vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:59
À : Prof. Diego Dujovne <>; Hesham ElBakoury <>
Cc : Lou Berger <>;; Juliusz Chroboczek <>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <>
Objet : Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW

Votes are still open. Do we keep SPAWN or do we jump to RAW.
What does sound right, a SPAWN or a RAW Network?

All the best,


From: Paw <<>> On Behalf Of Prof. Diego Dujovne
Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:51
To: Hesham ElBakoury <<>>
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <<>>; Lou Berger <<>>;<>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <<>>; Juliusz Chroboczek <<>>
Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming

           Shall we split this e-mail between the renaming
topic and the reliability metrics discussion? I think both
items are really relevant to the group and deserve their
individual space.

                             Diego Dujovne

Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 07:03, Hesham ElBakoury <<>> a écrit :

There is a good book on reliability by Michael Tortorella. The book is "Reliability, Maintainability, and Supportability: Best Practices for Systems Engineers". It is available from Wiley.


-----Original Message-----
From: Paw [<>] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:55 AM
To: Juliusz Chroboczek <<>>
Cc: Lou Berger <<>>;<>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <<>>
Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming

Hello Juliusz:

Actually the theoretical work has been done a while ago, as  a response to your question at the mike when I suggested you dig for MTBF or similar (MTTF, MTBE...). We tend to express a network form of MTBF in a number of 9s. Like five 9s would indicate that the Mean Successful Transmissions Between Errors is 99999. A number of use cases would thrive on 1% loss as long as losses are always well spaced so the missing points can be recovered. This can be true for an industrial control loop, and false for burning a master video. The N 9s are there to make the occurrence of P (say, 4) losses in a row very rare, like a probability of 1/10^(N*P). But the 9s are for unrelated errors and fail to convey a rare burst of errors with a common cause, which is what really hurts. These things happen on radios and that's why we are after diverse paths etc..

There's enough stats for is in to take us a long way. Our problem is to migrate the concept from a product to a sequence of nodes and then to more complex structures. This could be refined in an academic paper, I expect that'd be a great topic, and then an RFC would summarize that.

What I'd like to see is an informational RFC that presents wireless reliability in a way that can be consumed by the IETF members, and provides terminology that can be referred in our specs. You seemed curious about the topic; that's quality number one for achieving great results : )

All the best,


More links:,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf<>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Juliusz Chroboczek <<>>

> Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 01:40

> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <<>>

> Cc: Venkatesan, Ganesh <<>>; Lou Berger

> <<>>;<>

> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming


> > We'll also need to provide a definition of reliability and

> > availability and as we discussed, 5nines is probably not the only or

> > even best way to express any of that. Juliusz actually raised the

> > point and I hope he continues on that path and even produces a spec for us.


> I'm flattered you think so, but I'm pretty sure I'm not competent.

> You'd need someone with more of a background in probability and statistics.


> -- Juliusz


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