Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr> Fri, 05 April 2019 12:01 UTC
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From: AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr>
To: "pthubert@cisco.com" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>
CC: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "paw@ietf.org" <paw@ietf.org>, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>
Thread-Topic: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
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Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 12:01:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
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Hi Pascal, All, I am in favor of RAW. Regards Vincent [cid:image001.png@01D4EBB8.04F9DA20] Vincent AUDEBERT Research Engineer EDF – R&D Lab Saclay MIRE 7 Bd Gaspard Monge 91120 PALAISEAU vincent.audebert@edf.fr Phone : + 33 1 78 19 45 64 Mobile : + 33 6 14 13 23 22 [cid:image002.gif@01D4EBB8.04F9DA20] Un geste simple pour l'environnement, n'imprimez ce message que si vous en avez l'utilité. De : Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de pthubert@cisco.com Envoyé : vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:59 À : Prof. Diego Dujovne <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>; Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> Cc : Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; paw@ietf.org; Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com> Objet : Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Votes are still open. Do we keep SPAWN or do we jump to RAW. What does sound right, a SPAWN or a RAW Network? All the best, Pascal From: Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Prof. Diego Dujovne Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:51 To: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com<mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>> Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>; Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org<mailto:paw@ietf.org>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com<mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>; Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr<mailto:jch@irif.fr>> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming Pascal, Shall we split this e-mail between the renaming topic and the reliability metrics discussion? I think both items are really relevant to the group and deserve their individual space. Regards, Diego Dujovne Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 07:03, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com<mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>> a écrit : There is a good book on reliability by Michael Tortorella. The book is "Reliability, Maintainability, and Supportability: Best Practices for Systems Engineers". It is available from Wiley. Hesham -----Original Message----- From: Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:55 AM To: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr<mailto:jch@irif.fr>> Cc: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org<mailto:paw@ietf.org>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com<mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming Hello Juliusz: Actually the theoretical work has been done a while ago, as a response to your question at the mike when I suggested you dig for MTBF or similar (MTTF, MTBE...). We tend to express a network form of MTBF in a number of 9s. Like five 9s would indicate that the Mean Successful Transmissions Between Errors is 99999. A number of use cases would thrive on 1% loss as long as losses are always well spaced so the missing points can be recovered. This can be true for an industrial control loop, and false for burning a master video. The N 9s are there to make the occurrence of P (say, 4) losses in a row very rare, like a probability of 1/10^(N*P). But the 9s are for unrelated errors and fail to convey a rare burst of errors with a common cause, which is what really hurts. These things happen on radios and that's why we are after diverse paths etc.. There's enough stats for is in https://ftp.automationdirect.com/pub/Product%20Reliability%20and%20MTBF.pdf to take us a long way. Our problem is to migrate the concept from a product to a sequence of nodes and then to more complex structures. This could be refined in an academic paper, I expect that'd be a great topic, and then an RFC would summarize that. What I'd like to see is an informational RFC that presents wireless reliability in a way that can be consumed by the IETF members, and provides terminology that can be referred in our specs. You seemed curious about the topic; that's quality number one for achieving great results : ) All the best, Pascal More links: http://www.bb-elec.com/Learning-Center/All-White-Papers/Fiber/MTBF,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf https://books.google.nl/books?id=rNLSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=reliability+MTBF+MTBE+papers&source=bl&ots=L7BsInfaO3&sig=ACfU3U0kYd1lGRyRR_aD5AET9LOI8ZfZWg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisr-LirLjhAhWPZ1AKHe8yARwQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ https://www.dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability<https://www..dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability> > -----Original Message----- > From: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr<mailto:jch@irif.fr>> > Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 01:40 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>> > Cc: Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com<mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>; Lou Berger > <lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org<mailto:paw@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming > > > We'll also need to provide a definition of reliability and > > availability and as we discussed, 5nines is probably not the only or > > even best way to express any of that. Juliusz actually raised the > > point and I hope he continues on that path and even produces a spec for us. > > I'm flattered you think so, but I'm pretty sure I'm not competent. > You'd need someone with more of a background in probability and statistics. > > -- Juliusz -- Paw mailing list Paw@ietf.org<mailto:Paw@ietf.org> https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/paw<https://www..ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw> -- Paw mailing list Paw@ietf.org<mailto:Paw@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw -- DIEGO DUJOVNE Profesor Asociado Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile www.ingenieria.udp.cl<http://www.ingenieria.udp.cl> (56 2) 676 8125 Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes (ci-après le 'Message') sont établis à l'intention exclusive des destinataires et les informations qui y figurent sont strictement confidentielles. 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- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW AUDEBERT Vincent
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Xavi Vilajosana Guillen
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Mukesh Taneja (mutaneja)
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Shankar Ramanathan (shankram)
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Fabrice Theoleyre
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Prof. Diego Dujovne
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Georgios Z. Papadopoulos
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Pascal Thubert (pthubert)