Re: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

[<[e-mail]>]

Hi,

I would rather prefer to have a more generic statement for the PCC local policy :

The ERO may be empty if the PCE cannot find a valid path for a delegated LSP. One typical situation resulting in this empty ERO carried in the PCUpd message is that a PCE can no longer find a strict SRLG-disjoint path for a delegated LSP after a link failure.  The PCC SHOULD implement a local policy to decide the appropriate action to be taken: tear down LSP, revoke delegation and use a locally computed path, keep existing LSP state …

Brgds,


From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Dhruv Dhody
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 06:45
To: Zhangxian (Xian)
Cc: LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; DUGEON Olivier IMT/OLN; Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA); MEURIC Julien IMT/OLN; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

Hi Xian,

I would avoid saying set of *paths* for delegated LSP, instead I would modify your text slightly as -

The ERO may be empty if the PCE cannot find a valid path for a delegated LSP. One typical situation resulting in this empty ERO carried in the PCUpd message is that a PCE can no longer find a strict SRLG-disjoint path for a delegated LSP after a link failure.  If the PCC's local policy allows it, it SHOULD signal the tear down of the LSP. Alternatively, PCC MAY revoke delegation and use a locally computed path instead.

Regards,
Dhruv

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 8:15 AM, Zhangxian (Xian) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi, Stephane,  Olivier, All,

      I support the option 1 Dhruv proposed (see below), which has least impact on existing implementations.

>(1) Allow Empty ERO to mean no path.
>Let it be valid in all messages to mean that no intended path exists for this LSP.
>As per -16,
>- empty ERO is added in the end of synchronization marker (PCRpt).
>- The ERO may be empty if the PCE does not have a path for a delegated LSP.

>We can add text in section 6.2 to say something like –

>The ERO may be empty if the PCE does not have an intended path for the delegated LSP.
>If the local policy allows it, the PCC SHOULD signal the tear down of the LSP. At
>this time, PCC MAY also revoke delegation and use a locally computed path instead.

>To me this is more logical and in spirit with the rest of the document, also would require least amount of changes in existing implementations.

If we have rough consensus, we should start to work on the changes  needed in draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-16 to clarify, I would propose to add the following sentences in somewhere in Section 6.2 (edited on top of what Dhruv has suggested above):

The ERO may be empty if the PCE cannot find one or a set of valid paths for a delegated LSP.  One typical situation resulting in this empty ERO carried in the PCUpd message is that PCE can no longer find two strictly SRLG-disjoint paths for a delegation LSP after link failure.  If its local policy allows it, the PCC SHOULD signal the tear down of the LSP. Alternatively, PCC MAY revoke delegation and use a locally computed path instead.

Does the text look good to address the ambiguity issue you raised?

Regards,
Xian

发件人: Pce [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>] 代表 [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
发送时间: 2016年10月6日 15:19
收件人: DUGEON Olivier IMT/OLN; Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA); MEURIC Julien IMT/OLN; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
主题: Re: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

Hi Olivier,

I think we almost have a consensus on using the current ERO object with the semantic “I have no intended path”, so adding a new sibling object is not necessary.
It would then be up to the PCC to have a local policy to control the associated behavior => tear down, revoking delegation, keep existing path or whatever…

Optionally, we still need to agree if we consider NO-PATH object as a complement and optional object.

Brgds,


From: Pce [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Olivier Dugeon
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 18:11
To: Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA); MEURIC Julien IMT/OLN; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path


Hello all,

If I try to summarize, in one hand we have some implementations that use an empty ERO which lead in interoperability issues due to ambiguous interpretation, and in the other hand a clear non-ambiguous object i.e. NO-PATH which break implementation or at least impose strong modifications in existing code.

So, in order to advance on the subject, I would propose to add new code points to explicitly mention that the ERO is empty, and why is empty:  This solves the ambiguity while imposing smooth modification in today implementations as they just have to check a particular ERO code point (in replacement to check that the ERO is empty) instead processing a new object (i.e. NO-PATH).

There is two options for this new ERO code points:

a) At the ERO registry level. ERO is Class Type 20 and Class Num 1. The idea is to add a new Class Num = 2 i.e. Empty ERO with possibility to add different values to specify why it is empty e.g. 1 = NO-PATH, 2 = LOOSE-PATH ...

b) At the sub-object level. Within ERO Class Type 20 and Class Num 1, add new code points. eg. 38 = Empty-ERO NO-PATH, 39 = Empty-ERO Loose-Path ...

Option a) require to request a new registry and code points while option b) just require new code points in existing registry to IANA. Option a) allows to add a dedicated registry for Empty ERO with possibility to precisely describe why it is empty, while option b) mix the notion of Empty ERO and the reason why it is empty. Looking to implementation, option a) impose to look at Class Num when processing the ERO while option b) just need to look at sub-object.

Draft stateful could introduce this new ERO code points (whatever option a or b) and other drafts (initiated, synchronisation ...) could add there own needs regarding this empty ERO.

Comments are welcome.

Regards

Olivier
Le 05/10/2016 à 16:01, Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA) a écrit :
I am of the same opinion too. Let us keep empty ERO in both the PCUpd and PCRpt messages to mean there is no valid path for the LSP. A PCC implementation receiving a PCUpd with an empty ERO for a non-zero PLSP-ID can decide if the outcome of this means to tear down the path or keep the existing working path. If the PCC wants to use the local CSPF or an IGP driven path, then it must first revoke the delegation as per existing procedures.

Regards,
Mustapha.

From: Pce [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Julien Meuric
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 8:04 AM
To: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path


Hi all,

Chair hat on, I concur with the proposed plan: we need to stick to the current scope of the base stateful I-D and fix pending issues in there, new proposals like "partial delegation" do require a new document.

Thank you Dhruv and Stéphane for being proactive on that,

Julien

Oct. 05, 2016 - :
Hi Dhruv, Sudhir

I agree that what is achieved here is a partial delegation which is not inline with delegation in stateful pce draft which gives full control to PCE.

The use case described is interesting but I’m afraid that empty ERO was used for this purpose while there was no discussion at WG level to achieve consensus for this partial delegation solution. I would prefer that Juniper used a vendor specific flag for this behavior rather than using existing objects.
I would prefer to close the base stateful PCE draft before adding new features …

Partial delegation may be complex to handle as some people may want ERO to be controlled by PCC while constraints by PCE and some other may want the opposite (constraints by PCC and ERO by PCE) so this requires more discussion.

Brgds,

Stephane

From: Dhruv Dhody [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 06:09
To: Sudhir Cheruathur; LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; Harish Magganmane; Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA); [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Cc: 'Dhruv Dhody'
Subject: RE: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

Hi Sudhir/Harish,

Thanks for explaining your motivation but it is not as per the definition of “delegation”.
What you are suggesting is a new feature lets call it “partial delegation”. I hope we can discuss the merit and the procedures of this in a small separate document away from this base document. IMHO this document should explain why partial delegation is needed and especially why PCE would still like to control how the path is computed at PCC?

How do you/WG feel about taking this approach?

Regards,
Dhruv


From: Pce [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Sudhir Cheruathur
Sent: 04 October 2016 23:16
To: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Harish Magganmane <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

Stephane/Dhruv/Mustapha,

>>I’m trying to understand what you really want to achieve here. Or do you want to have PCE updating LSP parameters/constraints but let the PCC compute path ?

We want to allow changing of other attributes of an LSP (such as BW/metric), but leave the path computation to the PCC. With this a PCC now has a choice to do a local CSPF or use IGP hop-by-hop. This choice can be enforced on the PCC with an empty ERO and local policy. When we want to drive this same behavior from the PCE then we could you use a NO-PATH object.

We could define flags in the NO-PATH object to tell the PCC what to do when a path is not available. The Nature of Issue is set to 0 (No path) and flags can be defined to specify the following

a)      Bring down the LSP

b)      Use local CSPF

c)       Use IGP based hop-by-hop.

Thanks
Redgs
Sudhir C



From: Pce <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 at 1:27 AM
To: Harish Magganmane <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA)" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

Hi Harish,

Thanks for your feedback.
I do not really understand why you map the empty ERO to a decision to possibly fallback computation to local.
As you mentioned, it could be a local PCC policy decision and this local policy could be to tear down the LSP instead of deferring ERO selection to the local router as you proposed.

The important point is the semantic of this empty ERO, not really the action taken. I understand in your email  that you still interpret it from a semantic point of view has an indication of no path, so you then can decide to defer ERO selection to the router. Because in the case, you want to have the PCE giving back path computation role to PCC, the PCE must use the delegate flag for this purpose and can revoke the delegation at anytime. I’m trying to understand what you really want to achieve here. Or do you want to have PCE updating LSP parameters/constraints but let the PCC compute path ?

Best Regards,

Stephane



From: Harish Magganmane [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2016 00:53
To: LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA); [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

Hi Stephane,

We are not in favor of using empty ERO as way to signal the tearing of an LSP. IMO empty ERO object should be interpreted to mean deferring the ERO selection to the router, perhaps through local policy on the PCC. For example PCC could choose between a local CSPF or a IGP based hop-by-hop.

In cases where we want PCE to explicitly control the behavior of the PCC when a path is not available, NO-PATH object can be used to dictate the behavior. One such behavior could be that of tearing down the LSP.

Thanks,
Harish

From: Pce <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 8:33 AM
To: "Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA)" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

Hi Mustapha,

Your proposal works from my point of view, but it looks that it causes some trouble to another vendor so I would like these people (and others as well) to express their concerns regarding usage of empty ERO.

Thanks for pointing again your last proposal.

Best Regards,

Stephane


From: Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA) [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 17:08
To: LITKOWSKI Stephane OBS/OINIS; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

Hi Stephane,
In the last email related to this issue, I made a proposal to Olivier and Robert commented on it. Would that be sufficient to address this interop issue?
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pce/A1ADiw6Uvjn1ETjErqzgjdjXnsE

Mustapha.

From: Pce [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 5:46 AM
To: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: [Pce] Urgent issue with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce : PCE advising PCC about no path

Hi WG, and draft authors,

We still have an urgent interoperability issue to solve with draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce. We currently have no clear semantic for the PCE to advise the PCC that there is no more path available. This point was already raised through the list but as we need an URGENT resolution of this issue because of implementation timelines, I would like to reactivate the thread.

The situation of no path at PCE side can happen in many situations, and a particular situation will require PCC to tear down an existing path : let’s think about two strictly SRLG disjoint LSPs with a working path . Now the transmission topology is changing (rerouting at WDM layer) leading SRLG disjointness not being fitted anymore and PCE cannot find anymore disjoint path, it must advise one PCC to tear down the path because it is no more disjoint (strict disjointness required).
We do not have any clear semantic today and some implementations are using empty ERO for this purpose in PCUpdate but the PCC does not recognize it as a valid no path significance.

This subject is critical and I would like that we can achieve a consensus asap on the target solution so then vendors can align implementations.
This thread is focusing on the PCE -> PCC way, but having a semantic of reporting a no path is also necessary in PCC->PCE way through PCRpt, at least to ACK a PCupdate.

One of the previous discussion on the list talked about the possibility to use NO-PATH object which already has this semantic for PCReq/PCRep but as already mentioned we need to assess impact on existing implementations, so vendor feedback (with customer implementations) is highly required. So this is my starting proposal to initiate the discussion.


Best Regards,


[ange logo]<http://www.orange.com/>

Stephane Litkowski
Network Architect
Orange/SCE/EQUANT/OINIS/NET
Orange Expert Future Networks
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