Re: [Pce] Rtgdir last call review of draft-farrel-pce-stateful-flags-02

"BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com> Tue, 05 November 2019 19:57 UTC

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From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, "draft-farrel-pce-stateful-flags.all@ietf.org" <draft-farrel-pce-stateful-flags.all@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org> (rtg-ads@ietf.org)" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Rtgdir last call review of draft-farrel-pce-stateful-flags-02
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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 19:55:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Rtgdir last call review of draft-farrel-pce-stateful-flags-02
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Hi Adrian,

What you say is all correct. But it doesn't help with the confusion. I just need to know if this is an individual draft requesting to be PS or is it requested by a working group and (for whatever reason) the filename was not changed to reflect it. There's several guideline documents on filenames:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.txt
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6174

There is no need for chairs to spend "weeks" adopting or last calling. What is needed though is for the filename to reflect the correct "source". RFC6174 provides the logistics. Uploading with a wg filename takes seconds (if all is working correctly😊).

As you say, you are an author hoping to quickly progress your document. I'll talk with the PCE chairs as they requested the publication and unless I'm mis-interpreting this can be quickly fixed.

Thanks-
Deborah


-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 4:47 PM
To: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com>;; rtg-dir@ietf.org
Cc: pce@ietf.org; draft-farrel-pce-stateful-flags.all@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Rtgdir last call review of draft-farrel-pce-stateful-flags-02

Hello Deborah,

I wonder whether something has changed in the IETF process that I'm not aware of. That is possible.

> Adrian, I'm also a bit confused on the intention of the draft. While 
> the tools are not error checking a draft with intended status of PS 
> against a title indicating an individual submission, the title does 
> indicate the source of the document. With the current title, this 
> document is an individual submission to the IETF stream. If this is a 
> product of the working group, the title needs to reflect it. As it is 
> requested to be "PS", it does need to reflect the associated working 
> group.

The document has not been adopted by the working group, but it has been last called by the working group.
While the WG chairs are allowed to adopt a document off their own bat, they prefer to use an adoption poll whenever they do an adoption. That can add a two week poll, but there is also a queue in many working groups, so a document can end up dying of boredom.

If you can point me at the process rule that says that document emerging from a WG must have a specific name format then I guess we can change the document (and also write a draft to change the rule ;-) 

If you can point me at the rule that says Standards Track documents must be the product of a working group (not, for example, AD sponsored) I'll be surprised.

> While it is a bit surprising this was not raised in WG Last Call 
> (hopefully folks have read the document),

The chairs did call out the direct progression of this draft to WG last call in a mail to the list prior to starting the last call.

> it will definitely be flagged with the other Area Directorate reviews 
> and IESG review.

I shall delight in helping them to understand the processes of which they are guardians :-)

> While the working group cycle was very short, the resulting 
> publication cycle will be very long.

Oh, I have long ago given up on doing things to simply follow the path of least resistance. The IESG needs to recognise that they are supposed to facilitate publication (of good documents) not get in the way! If the resulting cycle is long we will at least know why.

> As the WG LC was based on PS status, I would conclude the group is ok 
> with PS. Either you can change the title to reflect a product of the 
> pce working group or change the status to Informational and I'll take 
> it forward as an individual submission. If you change the title to a 
> product of the pce working group, I'll follow up with a note to the 
> list to double check if anyone has any concerns. And then we can move 
> ahead.

I do hope that we will not get hung up on any misunderstandings of process. As you observe, the publication cycle for drafts has become long. Many times they leave the WG and don't hit the RFC Editor Queue for four months.. I see the process including:
- Shepherd review
- Directorate review
- AD review
- IETF last call
- Late directorate reviews
- IESG review
Each of these has three steps:
- Queued for action
- Review period
- Update period

Even when the authors are immediately responsive to any review comments raised, this can drag on a long time. If each review is scheduled for two weeks, that's 12 weeks burned. If the "silent" time to queue for action is also a week or two, you can quickly see why the tail of our process has become a burden. Suddenly the RFC Editor's 8 week queue seems short!

> Looking forward to your choice😊

My choice as author is to follow IETF process.
You've had a publication request, from the PCE working group to publish an Internet-Draft on the Standards Track.
I hope we can proceed with that without further delay.

Thanks,
Adrian