Re: [Pce] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling-19: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> Fri, 07 August 2020 16:30 UTC
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From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling@ietf.org>, "pce-chairs@ietf.org" <pce-chairs@ietf.org>, "pce@ietf.org" <pce@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling-19: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [Pce] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling-19: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Ben, Thank you very much for your time, valuable comments and suggestions, which improve the quality of the document. They should have been addressed in version 23. My explanations/answers are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 6:26 PM To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org> Cc: draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling@ietf.org <draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling@ietf.org>; pce-chairs@ietf.org <pce-chairs@ietf.org>; pce@ietf.org <pce@ietf.org>; Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; adrian@olddog.co.uk <adrian@olddog.co.uk> Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling-19: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling-19: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fiesg%2Fstatement%2Fdiscuss-criteria.html&data=02%7C01%7Chuaimo.chen%40futurewei.com%7C778d3537a59c4d57abee08d822c4d2b0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637297576046915219&sdata=iS8BeWM%2FhWHafc3Yg16BaUJVcfOF%2FEcYo%2BRzCVQkNYE%3D&reserved=0 for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling%2F&data=02%7C01%7Chuaimo.chen%40futurewei.com%7C778d3537a59c4d57abee08d822c4d2b0%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637297576046925175&sdata=qUrR8zNG%2FTw8aZu9k77e1tEjPeOtGRMc72rYPW8JdIM%3D&reserved=0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This being a discuss ballot notwithstanding, the protocol mechanisms here seem pretty well thought-out; I'm just wanting changes to how they are described. There seems to be an internal inconsistency in Section 4.3, between "[t]he PCE SHOULD add the scheduled LSP into its scheduled LSP-DB and update its scheduled TED" and "[t]he stateful PCE is required to update its local scheduled LSP-DB and scheduled TED". (I think the "SHOULD" one is wrong, personally.) [HC]: You are right. We have changed "SHOULD" to "MUST", "is required to" to "MUST" in version 22 of the document uploaded. Let's also take a closer look at the precise interdependency between the B bit and PD bit -- Section 5.1 implies that the PD bit itself cannot be set in the absence of the B bit, referring forward to Section 5.2.2, but Section 5.2.2 seems to only say that you need both the B and PD bits set in order to send SCHED-PD-LSP-ATTRIBUTE. Bits being set as a prerequisite for sending the TLV is a subtly different condition than having the one bit itself depend on the other, with correspondingly different error handling. [HC]: This is a good catch. We will use the latter, and change the text for the former accordingly. (Changed in version 23) Section 6.6 refers to the "LSP-ERROR-CODE TLV (Section 7.3.3) which is not defined in this document, rather, the reference should be to § 3.3 of RFC 8231. [HC]: We have changed the text to the following (in version 23): LSP-ERROR-CODE TLV (Section 7.3.3 of RFC 8231) with LSP error-value = 4 "Unacceptable parameters" ... The LSP-ERROR-CODE TLV is defined in Section 7.3.3 of RFC 8231. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm pretty sympathetic to Alvaro's not-quite-Discuss, but also am not quite prepared to elevate it to Discuss level (and incur the responsibility to determine what changes are necessary to resolve it). I note several editorial comments and nits below, but those remarks are not comprehensive. Abstract so as to enable Labeled Switched Path (LSP) scheduling for path computation and LSP setup/deletion based on the actual network resource usage and the duration of a traffic service in a centralized network environment as stated in RFC 8413. Just looking at this text in isolation, it's not entirely clear if the event that is scheduled is the LSP activation, creation, calculation, or something else, and whether it is just the computed path that depends on the resource usage/traffic duration, or if other things like the frequency of scheduling or the existence of an LSP at all would be dependent on those. Presumably the rest of the document will clarify, but perhaps there is some wordsmithing possible here. [HC]: We have rephrased it. Section 1 letting other services use it when this service is not using it. The requirement of scheduled LSP provision is mentioned in [RFC8231] and nit(?): I think s/provision/provisioning/ [HC]: We have changed it as you suggested. [RFC7399]. A solution for providing more efficient network resource usage for traffic engineering is desired. Also, for deterministic nit: I don't really follow the connection between these two sentences -- "a solution for [...] is desired" seems to be a general re-statement of the problem, whereas the previous discussion has been discussing, essentially, the benefits of the proposed solution. [HC]: We have removed this general re-statement. Section 2.1 Hmm, RFC 8231 says that it itself takes the definitions for "Active Stateful PCE", "Passive Stateful PCE", and several other terms from RFC 8051; we should probably short-circuit the reference chain(s). [HC]: We have changed reference to RFC 8051 for "Active Stateful PCE", "Delegation" and "LSP-DB". Scheduled TED: Traffic engineering database with the awareness of scheduled resources for TE. This database is generated by the PCE from the information in TED and scheduled LSP-DB and allows knowing, at any time, the amount of available resources (does not include failures in the future). I'd consider "the expected amount of available resources (discounting the possibility of failures in the future)". [HC]: We have changed to the text as you suggested. Section 4.1 The LSP scheduling allows PCEs and PCCs to provide scheduled LSP for customers' traffic services at its actual usage time, so as to improve the network resource efficient utilization. nit: s/resource efficient utilization/resource utilization efficiency/ [HC]: We have changed it as you suggested. In case of implementing PCC-initiated scheduled LSPs, before a PCC delegates a scheduled LSP, it MAY use the PCReq/PCRep messages to Just to check: there is some risk that the computed path might change between this query and when the LSP actually becomes active? [HC]: We have removed "before a PCC ... learn the path for the scheduled LSP." learn the path for the scheduled LSP. A PCC MUST delegate a scheduled LSP with information of its scheduling parameters, including the starting time and the duration using PCRpt message. I suggest "When delegating a scheduled LSP, a PCC MUST include its scheduling parameters, including [...]", to be clear about what cases the "MUST" applies to. (It might also be worth saying what a PCE should do if it receives a delegation request for a scheduled LSP that does not include the requisite parameters.) [HC]: We rephrased the text as suggested. For a multiple PCE environment, a PCE MUST synchronize to other PCEs within the network, so as to keep their scheduling information synchronized. There are many ways that this could be achieved: one such mechanism is described in [I-D.litkowski-pce-state-sync]. Which way is used to achieve this is out of scope for this document. [...] I'd suggest restructuring how this paragraph is laid out (akin to Alvaro's comment). Specifically, it's an intrinsic fact that if you're in a multi-PCE environment, you have to have inter-PCE synchronization or the stat skew causes problems. That's not new with this document; what we are most interested in saying is that, in addition to the existing need to synchrnoize the TED and LSP-DB, when scheduled LSPs are in use you also have to synchronize the SLSP-DB and have each PCE reconstruct the Scheduled TED (or synchronize the Scheduled TED as well). The ways to perform such synchronization are hardly worth mentioning, except to the extent that existing mechanisms cannot handle sending the extra information. [HC]: We have restructured this paragraph. The scheduled LSP can also be initiated by PCE itself. In case of nit: missing article (perhaps "by a PCE itself"). [HC]: We have added it in version 22. scheduled LSP based on the local policy. For the former SCHED-LSP- ATTRIBUTE TLV (see Section 5.2.1) MUST be included in the message I suggest s/For the former/In the former case, the/ [HC]: We have changed it as you suggested. where as for the latter SCHED-LSP-ATTRIBUTE TLV SHOULD NOT be nits: s/where as/whereas/, s/SCHED-LSP-ATTRIBUTE/the SCHED-LSP-ATTRIBUTE/ [HC]: We have changed them as you suggested. included. Either way the synchronization to other PCEs should be done when the scheduled LSP is created. I recognize that the BCP 14 keywords are not being used, but earlier we said "shall synchronize" but here it's just "synchronization should be done"; it's probably worth making these consistent. [HC]: We have changed "should" to "MUST". In both modes, for activation of scheduled LSPs, the PCC could initiate the setup of scheduled LSP at the start time by itself or wait for the PCE to update the PCC to initiate the setup of LSP. I'm worried about the "could initiate [...] or wait". While it's true that either party could take the initiative, doesn't there need to be an agreement between them about which one it will be, to avoid the risk of the LSP not actually geting instantiated at the start time? [HC]: We have changed "could" to "MUST" and rephrased the text. Similarly on the scheduling usage expires, the PCC could initiate the [HC]: We have changed "could" to "MUST" and rephrased the text. nit: s/expires/expiry/ or s/expires/expiration/ [HC]: We have changed it as you suggested. (Same comment about "could" as above.) [HC]: We have changed "could" to "MUST" and rephrased the text. Section 4.2.2 When an LSP is configured with a scheduling interval such as "[Ta, Tb] repeats 10 times with a repeat cycle a week" (representing 11 scheduling intervals), a path satisfying the constraints for the LSP in every interval represented by the periodical scheduling interval is computed once. And then the LSP along the path is set up to carry traffic in each of the scheduling intervals. If there is no path satisfying the constraints for some of the intervals, the LSP will not be set up at all. This seems to say that the same path must be used for each recurrence of the scheduled event, precluding some optimizations that might be desired in the face of other (unscheduled or differently scheduled) load. Is that intended? [HC]: The path for one recurrence may be different from the path for another recurrence. We have added a note about this. Section 4.2.2.1 When an LSP is configured with elastic time interval "[Ta, Tb] within -P and Q", a path is computed such that the path satisfies the constraints for the LSP in the time period from (Ta+Xv) to (Tb+Xv) and |Xv| is the minimum value for Xv from -P to Q. That is, [Ta+Xv, To check my understanding, this mention of |Xv| is indicating that the PCE attempts to limit the deviation from the requested interval, using an absolute value metric to indicate distance from the requested value? It might be worth putting in a few more words to indicate that this optimization is being performed; just "is the minimum value" could be confusing. [HC]: We have rephrased the text. Section 4.2.2.2 During grace periods from (Ta-GB) to Ta and from Tb to (Tb+GA), the LSP is up to carry traffic (maybe in best effort). This point seems pretty key to having grace periods at all. In particular, if there is no difference between the traffic-handling properties for the grace period and the "main interval", then the grace period is more simply handled by the entity requesting the interval (i.e., "just ask for a larger interval"). The fact that we propose to give different traffic-handling behavior during the grace period should be emphasized, in order to justify the existence of the protocol element. In the absence of such justifying text, I would propose to remove the grace-period feature as needless complexity. [HC]: There is a difference between them. We have rephrased the text to indicate the difference. Section 4.3 For PCE-Initiated Scheduled LSP, the stateful PCE can compute a path for the scheduled LSP per requests from network management systems automatically based on the network resource availability in the scheduled TED, send a PCInitiate message with the path information nit: s/, send/ and send/ [HC]: We have changed it as you suggested. back to the PCC. Based on the local policy, the PCInitiate message could be sent immediately to ask PCC to create a scheduled LSP (as nit: s/ask PCC/ask the PCC/ [HC]: We have changed it in version 22. o Based on the configuration (and the C flag in scheduled TLVs), when it is time (i.e., at the start time) for the LSP to be set up, either the PCC triggers the LSP to be signaled or the delegated PCE sends a PCUpd message to the head end LSR providing the updated path to be signaled (with A flag set to indicate LSP activation). We haven't discussed the C flag yet, so a reader is left wondering "how do I know whether the PCC or PCE is going to take initiative?". We could reword, perhaps like "When it is time for the LSP to be set up (i.e., at the start time), based on the value of the C flag for the scheduled TLV, either the PCC [...]". Similar changes would be applicable in later sections as well. [HC]: We have rephrased it as you suggested. Section 4.4 Are there any special considerations for modifying a periodic scheduled LSP after some recurrences have already happened? What about for modifying any scheduled LSP that is currently active (whether before the chage, after the change, or both)? [HC]: The unused recurrences can be modified or cancelled. Modifying a scheduled LSP that is currently active is similar to modifying a normal LSP that is currently active. In addition, the duration (the lifetime) of the scheduled LSP can be reduced. Section 5.1 After a PCEP session has been established, a PCC and a PCE indicates its ability to support LSP scheduling during the PCEP session establishment phase. For a multiple-PCE environment, the PCEs should also establish PCEP session and indicate its ability to support LSP scheduling among PCEP peers. The Open Object in the Open message Does a PCE need to refrain from advertising scheduling support to PCCs if its PCE peers do not all support scheduling? [HC]: No. scheduling among PCEP peers. The Open Object in the Open message contains the STATEFUL-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV defined in [RFC8231]. Note that the STATEFUL-PCE-CAPABILITY TLV is defined in [RFC8231] and updated in [RFC8281] and [RFC8232]". In this document, we define a new flag bit B (SCHED-LSP-CAPABLITY) flag for the STATEFUL-PCE- CAPABILITY TLV to indicate the support of LSP scheduling and another flag bit PD (PD-LSP-CAPABLITY) to indicate the support of LSP periodical scheduling. I note that (e.g.) RFC 8623 does not seem to give mnemonic names for the individual bits, so our "bit B" and "bit PD" seem a bit out of place. [HC]: RFC 8623 gives 3 mnemonic names for 3 bits (bit 23, 24, 25): 23 P2MP-LSP-INSTANTIATION-CAPABILITY [RFC8623] 24 P2MP-LSP-UPDATE-CAPABILITY [RFC8623] 25 P2MP-CAPABILITY [RFC8623] Section 5.2 Only one of these TLV SHOULD be present in the LSP object. In case more than one scheduling TLV is found, the first instance is processed and others ignored. It seems that this wording "more than one scheduling TLV" might apply to some hypothetical future TLV type for a different variation of scheduled LSPs. If that would be undesirable, we could reword to mention the two TLV types by name. [HC]: We have rephrased this in version 22. Section 5.2.1 Please note that this formulation (number of seconds since a fixed time) is invariant to leap seconds, but that conversions from current UTC time to it might need to account for leap seconds. (Or if you want to ignore leap seconds, say that.) [HC]: It seems that the leap seconds are accounted. C (1 bit): Set to 1 to indicate the PCC is responsible to setup and remove the scheduled LSP based on the Start-Time and duration. I suggest noting that the PCE holds these responsibilities when the bit is set to zero. [HC]: We have added this as you suggested. Start-Time (32 bits): This value in seconds, indicates when the scheduled LSP is used to carry traffic and the corresponding LSP must be setup and activated. Value of 0 MUST NOT be used in Start-Time. Note that the transmission delay SHOULD be considered when R=1 and the value of Start-Time is small. I don't understand why start-time of 0 is disallowed (for at least the R=0 case) -- that would disallow requesting a start time that happens to land on the time when the time counter wraps around, for no reason. [HC]: You are right. We have removed this limit. The Start-Time indicates a time at or before which the scheduled LSP must be set up. The value of the Start-Time represents the number of seconds since the epoch when R bit is set to 0. When R bit is set to 1, it represents the number of seconds from the current time. In addition, it contains an non zero grace-before and grace-after if I suggest s/it/the SCHED-LSP-ATTRIBUTE TLV/; it's easy to misread the "it" as referring to the "Start-Time" from the previous paragraph. [HC]: We have changed "it" to "the value of the Start-Time". grace periods are configured. It includes an non zero elastic range Are the Grace-Before/Grace-After fields set to zero when grace periods are not configured? [HC]: Yes. lower bound and upper bound if there is an elastic range configured. (Likewise for elastic-range.) [HC]: Yes. Section 5.2.2 Opt: (4 bits) Indicates options to repeat. A new registry "Opt" under SCHED-PD-LSP-ATTRIBUTE is created. When a PCE receives a TLV with a Opt value not defined, it does not compute any path for the LSP. It generates a PCEP Error (PCErr) with a PCEP-ERROR object having Error-type = 4 (Not supported object) and Error- value = 4 (Unsupported parameter). Have we thought about what kind of negotiation might be needed in the case where a new Opt value is defined? Though the possibility currently seems unlikely, this error message does not seem sufficient to indicate which Opt value is problematic. [HC]: In fact, the PCEP Error message contains the TLV with the Opt value. NR: (12 bits) The number of repeats. In each of repeats, LSP carries traffic. Maybe say that NR==0 is equivalent to using SCHED-LSP-ATTRIBUTE (to avoid questions of 0- vs. 1-indexing)? [HC]: Since there is a SCHED-LSP-ATTRIBUTE defined, to make SCHED-PD-LSP-ATTRIBUTE to be SCHED-LSP-ATTRIBUTE may make the procedures related complicated. Section 6.x We mention in several places "the scheduled TLVs" for the LSP object, but this seems misleading, since at most one scheduled TLV should be present in a given object. Perhaps "a scheduled TLV" would be better? [HC]: We have changed it as you suggested. Section 6.2 Perhaps it's worth noting that in the PCE-initiated case there is the option to avoid using the scheduled LSP TLVs (and, to some extent, PCUpd at all), since the PCE can just not tell the PCC about the scheduled path until its start-time occurs. [HC]: It seems that Section 6.3 mentions something like not using the scheduled TLVs. Section 6.4 request the path computation based on scheduled TED and LSP-DB. A PCC MAY use PCReq message to obtain the scheduled path before delegating the LSP. [if my previous comment about "subject to change" results in text changes, similar changes would apply here] [HC]: Added the text to refer to changes. Section 6.5 Just to check: the scheduled TLV should still be included in the response even for a negative response? (Also, same comment about "obtain the scheduled path before delegating".) [HC]: Yes. Section 8 Since we deal with scheduled events, we should remind implementations to do something reasonable when their current time jumps. Jumps can be forward or backward, and might cross boundaries for when LSPs should be (in)active. The presence of a significant time correction may be indicative of other (configuration) issues, and falling back to a conservative stance (keep LSPs active?) might be appropriate. Similarly, some discussion of how things break when there is clock skew between PCC and PCE might be useful (we already have a requirement for clock synchronization in discussion of the R flag). [HC]: Added some text in Operations related section. on the network. Thus, such deployment should employ suitable PCEP security mechanisms like TCP Authentication Option (TCP-AO) [RFC5925] or [RFC8253]. The procedure based on Transport Layer Security (TLS) in [RFC8253] is considered a security enhancement and thus is much better suited for the sensitive information. PCCs may also need to nit: TCP-AO would be considered a "security enhancement" as well (compared to a baseline of unprotected TCP). Perhaps the intent is to say that the TLS procedure from RFC 8253 additionally provides confidentiality protection to the conveyed data? [HC]: We changed the text related accordingly. nit: "such deployments" plural. [HC]: We have changed it as you suggested. Section 9.1 When configuring the parameters about time, a user SHOULD consider leap-years and leap-seconds. I know I mentioned leap seconds earlier as well, but this feels like a cop-out. We can tell the reader in much more detail how leap years and seconds will affect their calculations, which in aggregate will be much more efficient than making each reader think it through for themself. [HC]: This is a good suggestion. We have added more details. Section 9.2 nit(?) "view the capability" (singular) sounds like it's just seeing whether the scheduled LSP functionality is enabled or not, a boolean value. If the intent is to say that the specific (e.g., per-tunnel) state should be visible, then this should be reworded accordingly. [HC]: We have rephrased the text. Section 9.4 Is there something to say about checking that LSPs are activated/disabled at the appropriate times for scheduled and periodic events? [HC]: Added some text accordingly. Section 9.5 Are there any requirements on PCE-to-PCE synchronization protocols that now need to carry the SLSP-DB? [HC]: There are a few ways for PCE-to-PCE synchronization. Section 10.1.1 Is there anything to say about why the two reserved values are reserved? [HC]: 0 and 15 are two special values.
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