Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Fri, 17 May 2019 07:58 UTC

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To: Shivan Sahib <ssahib=40salesforce.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Cc: Stan Adams <sadams@cdt.org>, Nick Feamster <feamster@cs.princeton.edu>, pearg@irtf.org
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:58:01 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech
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Hiya,

On 17/05/2019 03:23, Shivan Sahib wrote:
> Hi Joe!
> 
> Chris, you and I have talked about this offline, but just to close that
> loop, I would personally like to see this draft in PEARG.

+1

> We can discuss
> whether we want to keep this a regularly-updated-draft or something else in
> the RG meeting at IETF 105 (we can do a short presentation, if you're
> interested).

Personally, I'd prefer to see the thing just finished as
soon as possible. A presentation for that is no harm, but
not really needed IMO. My argument for that is that an
RFC on this topic could be informative for protocol
designers, whereas the draft hasn't been so far (at least
afaik). Telling someone to go read and think about RFCnnnn
is more likely to be effective than explaining the status
of draft-hall-* I reckon.

> 
> One thing that would be good to see more of in the draft would be technical
> ways to get around censorship by using privacy-preserving technology. That
> discussion definitely does not have to be exhaustive!

-1 to extending the scope. That could be done in other
documents, each of which would likely take some time. FWIW,
personally, I'd recommend just getting this one to the
RFC editor queue, pocketing the progress, and then the RG
can move on to new documents documenting other mechanisms
for and countering censorship.

Cheers,
S.


> 
> Thanks,
> Shivan
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:46 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org> wrote:
> 
>> (Bcc'ing SECDISPATCH and SAAG as an FYI; thread on PEARG)
>>
>> Hello, apologies for cross-posting.
>>
>> At IETF 91 in 2014 we presented some very early work before SAAG that
>> describes how global censors use protocols to censor data flows (block,
>> impair, modify, etc.). After some editing in subsequent years based on
>> superb feedback from SAAG folks (Stephane B., Andrew M., thank you!) we had
>> tentative AD sponsorship and some thoughts that this was better on the IETF
>> side of the house rather than in a RG.
>>
>> We've started to work on it again* and since the original draft we now
>> have SECDISPATCH to help "the misfit toys of security" find a home in terms
>> of IETF process... I very briefly described this work yesterday in
>> SECDISPATCH and Chris Wood, the new PEARG co-chair, suggested that PEARG
>> would be a good place for this work since part of what they would like to
>> do in that RG is document certain privacy-implicating things in the real
>> world.
>>
>> We don't really have a preference where this ends up -- there's even a
>> case to be made that given the dynamic nature of censorship that this will
>> necessarily always be a work in progress. We have heard people find it
>> useful and PEARG seems as good as anywhere, and obviously the process to
>> get to an RG RFC would help it get better (at least that is my impression!).
>>
>> Here is the current version of the draft and the repo we're using to track
>> issues and version the doc:
>>
>> draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hall-censorship-tech-07
>> repo: https://github.com/josephlhall/rfc-censorship-tech
>>
>> Would love to hear if this is something people think PEARG would like to
>> work on and we have some ideas about additional documents in a series like
>> this (e.g., having some real-world descriptive reference on research and
>> practice in terms of traffic analysis could be really useful for IETF
>> folks, I suspect.)
>>
>> Cheers! --Joe Hall
>>
>> (copying two co-authors, Stan from CDT and Nick from Princeton)
>>
>> * IASA2 has been a big focus of my own for the last two years.
>>
>> --
>> Joseph Lorenzo Hall
>> Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org
>> ]
>> 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
>> e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
>> Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871
>>
>> Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The
>> Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/
>> --
>> Pearg mailing list
>> Pearg@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg
>>
> 
>