Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023), is IETF keeping its promises?
Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Mon, 09 January 2023 15:38 UTC
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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 10:37:54 -0500
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To: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Mark Nottingham <mnot=40mnot.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>, "pearg@irtf.org" <pearg@irtf.org>, saag <saag@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023), is IETF keeping its promises?
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On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 6:14 AM Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola= 40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > Il 06/01/2023 02:19 CET Mark Nottingham <mnot=40mnot.net@dmarc.ietf.org> > ha scritto: > > > > The IETF has considerable legitimacy as not only an institution that can > create useful technical documents, but also as a steward of the Internet > architecture as a means to realise and maintain a global public good, even > as we ourselves are an essentially private institution. In contrast, state > actors are still relatively unproven in their roles as Internet regulators. > > Pardon me for the thought-provoking remark, but if you were to say this to > any European Commission officer or national Internet regulator, you would > possibly get a diplomatic version of the following question: who are you, > the IETF or your employer to judge or question what a sovereign nation of > 5-10-80 million people decides for themselves through democratic processes? > Who gave you this right and this role, and how is this compatible with > democracy? > Having lost my citizenship as the result of a referendum where I wasn't even allowed to vote, I take a particular view on democratic control of means of communication. A view which is informed by several centuries of tradition and debate. The question of what the state can and cannot legitimately control goes back to Roman times, quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I believe that the answer lies in whose interest is being protected. I do not believe the French laws used to cover up corruption, affairs etc. of senior politicians are legitimate, those I happily ignore. But the European Union protections of personal privacy which are designed to protect the interest of those who do not make themselves public figures certainly deserve respect. Everyone talks about freedom. In the US, the most authoritarian party platform by some distance is that of the self styled 'Libertarian' party: You are going to have the freedom we force upon you. Very few people talk about what freedom means in concrete terms. As far as technology goes, freedom means I can buy a phone from one manufacturer and a charging cable from another and they will work and I can then go and buy a different phone from a different manufacturer and that will work with my existing charger. Freedom in social media means that I can post to one social media provider and my friends and family who use different providers can see my posts. It also means I can talk about Mel Brook's movie 'The Producers' without being banned for 45 days for mentioning 'Springtime for Hitler' (yes really, why do you keep doing such things Mr Facebook?). > (hint: there is no such thing as "a global public good" but many different > ideas of what that would be, as the definition of "good" is highly cultural > and subjective, the more so on a global scale; thus, defining what the > "global public good" is, for policy purposes, is not a matter of competence > but of representativeness, exactly like in the "old world" offline) > I disagree. I find the notion of nation states frankly ridiculous. What people mistake for 'Western values' are in fact values which in most cases have only emerged in the West during my lifetime. Many of the countries I have visited in Europe were under a dictatorship when I first visited: Spain, East Germany, Czechoslovakia. The United States only became a democracy in the 70s as the civil rights movement finally ended segregation and there are people trying hard to return to the old status quo and of course, the people beating up cops with the poles of 'blue lives matter' flags are yelling about 'freedom'. What we are talking about are universal values. Freedom of speech is a universal value, freedom of conscience is a universal value. Freedom of religion, sexual expression etc. etc. are all universal values. All of which is why I don't come to the IETF to be told what I am going to be allowed to do. I come to the IETF to find other people interested in building a particular view of the future. If the IETF were to decide that only futures approved by the US Congress or the EU Commission could be discussed, I would simply go somewhere else.
- [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023), is… John Mattsson
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Christopher Wood
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Dave Taht
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Adrian Gropper
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Antoine FRESSANCOURT
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Lloyd W
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … George Michaelson
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Dave Taht
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… John Mattsson
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Ted Hardie
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … John Mattsson
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Brad Chen
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Kyle Rose
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Antoine FRESSANCOURT
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Brad Chen
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Alan DeKok
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [EXT] Re: [saag] Ten years after Snow… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Alan DeKok
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dave Taht
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… bzs
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Brad Chen
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Adrian Gropper
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] [hrpc] Ten years after Snowden… Tony Rutkowski
- [Pearg] times square 15 sec delay new years Dave Taht
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Alec Muffett
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Alec Muffett
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Lloyd W
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Luigi Iannone
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Christian Huitema