Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt

Joseph Lorenzo Hall <hall@isoc.org> Tue, 04 August 2020 17:20 UTC

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From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <hall@isoc.org>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Mallory Knodel <mknodel@cdt.org>, "pearg@irtf.org" <pearg@irtf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt
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Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:19:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt
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On Aug 4, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:



On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:59 AM Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:


> Il 04/08/2020 17:38 Mallory Knodel <mknodel@cdt.org<mailto:mknodel@cdt.org>> ha scritto:
>
>
> On 8/4/20 11:25 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>
> > So for a significant part of the Internet community these techniques can be used for legitimate purposes other than censorship, and this should be acknowledged from the beginning, agreeing that not everyone using these techniques is a censor or accepts to be depicted like that.
>
> It's been said in this thread that censorship can be legitimate or
> illegitimate.

But not in the draft, as far as I can recall.

> It shouldn't be the aim of this draft to talk about the censors at all,
> nor how they'd like to be depicted. The draft is about the techniques.

The point is whether we can ever come to consensus on this draft and turn it into an RFC, which in my opinion is going to be hard if some IETF participants have to accept to be labelled as "censors" for using the techniques in the draft to, say, block access to phishing websites, or execute a court order.

As I said before, it's useful here to distinguish between blocking that is with the consent of the user (albeit sometimes in an opt-out fashion as with safe browsing) and that which is imposed on the user without their consent. I don't see a problem with calling the latter censorship, even if the content being blocked is non-political.

I like consent vs. non-consent better than legitimate vs. illegitimate it is definitely a more clear state (legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder, I’d think).

I’m not sure consent vs. non-consent will address Vittorio or Elliot’s critiques here, I suspect not.

best, Joe