Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..comments please.
"Richard Shockey" <richard@shockey.us> Thu, 24 April 2008 18:37 UTC
Return-Path: <peppermint-bounces@ietf.org>
X-Original-To: peppermint-archive@optimus.ietf.org
Delivered-To: ietfarch-peppermint-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F79228C148; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:37:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Original-To: peppermint@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: peppermint@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D06A3A67A7 for <peppermint@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.449
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y1EPrmrtjNRl for <peppermint@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:37:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.songbird.com (mail.songbird.com [208.184.79.10]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DED3A6D0C for <peppermint@ietf.org>; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:36:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rshockeyPC (neustargw.va.neustar.com [209.173.53.233]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.songbird.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m3OIZMYT006447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:35:23 -0700
From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
To: 'David Schwartz' <dschwartz@xconnect.net>, 'Hadriel Kaplan' <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
References: <125b01c89fe6$14f823c0$3ee86b40$@us> <20080419210654.GA30568@nic.at> <E6C2E8958BA59A4FB960963D475F7AC30BD035B4EF@mail.acmepacket.com> <20080420211101.GA32096@nic.at> <1a6601c8a3dd$49ca8c50$dd5fa4f0$@us> <20080422144452.GA582@nic.at> <E6C2E8958BA59A4FB960963D475F7AC30BD045ABC4@mail.acmepacket.com> <14b501c8a495$758aeb60$60a0c220$@us> <160DE07A1C4F8E4AA2715DEC577DA49193654F@srvxchg3.cablelabs.com> <154801c8a49b$22fbc2b0$68f34810$@us> <E6C2E8958BA59A4FB960963D475F7AC30BD045B4DE@mail.acmepacket.com> <160DE07A1C4F8E4AA2715DEC577DA491936564@srvxchg3.cablelabs.com> <E6C2E8958BA59A4FB960963D475F7AC30BD05031E7@mail.acmepacket.com> <092B2658AAB56A4D80836399A4C4703104526DBE@ASHEVS002.mcilink.com> <160DE07A1C4F8E4AA2715DEC577DA491936566@srvxchg3.cablelabs.com> <092B2658AAB56A4D80836399A4C4703104526E1F@ASHEVS002.mcilink.com> <160DE07A1C4F8E4AA2715DEC577DA491936569@srvxchg3.cablelabs.com> <092B2658AAB56A4D80836399A4C4703104527139@ASHEVS002.mcilink.com> <"092B265 8AAB56A4D80836! 399A4C47031037DD575"@AS HEVS002.mcilink.com> <100c01c8a61e$fdddf270$f999d750$@us> <092B2658AAB56A4D80836399A4C47031037DD579@ASHEVS002.mcilink.com> <E6C2E8958BA59A4FB960963D475F7AC30BD0578F1A@mail.acmepacket.com> <6CD59B58-979D-4850-B940-4AF55B7FDCB8@xconnect.net>
In-Reply-To: <6CD59B58-979D-4850-B940-4AF55B7FDCB8@xconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:36:09 -0400
Message-ID: <155601c8a63a$11ff09e0$35fd1da0$@us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0
thread-index: AcimNSobSTVk+l2OSN+TGI0FHKcAYwAALNgA
Content-Language: en-us
X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information
X-Songbird: Clean
X-Songbird-From: richard@shockey.us
Cc: 'Daryl Malas' <D.Malas@cablelabs.com>, peppermint@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..comments please.
X-BeenThere: peppermint@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Provisioning Extensions in Peering Registries for Multimedia INTerconnection <peppermint.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/peppermint>, <mailto:peppermint-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/pipermail/peppermint>
List-Post: <mailto:peppermint@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:peppermint-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/peppermint>, <mailto:peppermint-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: peppermint-bounces@ietf.org
Errors-To: peppermint-bounces@ietf.org
> > There has been much talk here about "going off the reservation" and > what the IESG will or won't approve. > > I think it would be helpful if one (or both) of the ADs would please > chime in here as to why there is a need to bound the solution space > when there are some valid arguments being presented on this list as to > why this is not a good idea. The AD's don't need to explain themselves. You don't seem to be listening here. All proposed WG charters must, within reason, clearly bound the scope of the problem they want to solve and what aspect of the problem they want to tackle first. At least in the beginning. The scope of work in the initial charter will be bounded, period. End of story. That is the IETF process. What don't you understand? This is what you do to get a charter approved in the IESG. The IETF has way too many examples of WG that go "wandering off the reservation" and try and tackle problems either tangential or impossible to solve or create work that goes on endlessly. What Daryl and I, as existing WG chairs, among others are reflecting is very practical experience how this process works. Find a problem, narrowly define the scope of the solution, fix the problem (incrementally, if possible), declare victory, go home. Ask any IETF WG chair about this. > > While no one wants to boil the ocean it may be a waste of time if all > we want to do is catch a small tuna. First you have to buy a hook than put the hook in the water .... we ran two successful BOF's pretty everyone including the AD's "get it". > > I think the discussion on this topic proves 2 things: > > 1 the great interest in the topic > 2 the different outlooks on the problem > > While I have nothing intrinsic against the proposed text one cannot > deny its limiting and in light of some of the resistance on the list - > maybe counterproductive at this point. We have come this far. We are very close to a implementable first charter and this discussion on whether there _should_ be limits on what the proposed WG should or should not do is definitely becoming counterproductive. The only useful discussion is what those limits actually are. > _______________________________________________ PEPPERMINT mailing list PEPPERMINT@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/peppermint
- [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..comments p… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Dan York
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Otmar Lendl
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Otmar Lendl
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… David Schwartz
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Otmar Lendl
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Daryl Malas
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Daryl Malas
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Daryl Malas
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Otmar Lendl
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Daryl Malas
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Dwight, Timothy M (Tim)
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Daryl Malas
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Daryl Malas
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Dwight, Timothy M (Tim)
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Daryl Malas
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Daryl Malas
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Dwight, Timothy M (Tim)
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… David Schwartz
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… PFAUTZ, PENN L, ATTCORP
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Daryl Malas
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Dwight, Timothy M (Tim)
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Guyton, Deborah A
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… PFAUTZ, PENN L, ATTCORP
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Dwight, Timothy M (Tim)
- [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter Version 02 Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter Version … Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… David Schwartz
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Otmar Lendl
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Ray.Bellis
- Re: [PEPPERMINT] DRINKS PROPOSED Charter ..commen… Richard Shockey