Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01
Jacob Appelbaum <jacob@appelbaum.net> Thu, 05 December 2013 00:31 UTC
Return-Path: <jacob@appelbaum.net>
X-Original-To: perpass@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: perpass@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D4B1AE195 for <perpass@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 16:31:23 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.6
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FSL_HELO_BARE_IP_2=2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78Hbr1tASvhY for <perpass@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 16:31:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com [209.85.217.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843131AE1A2 for <perpass@ietf.org>; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 16:31:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-lb0-f172.google.com with SMTP id z5so9884699lbh.31 for <perpass@ietf.org>; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:31:17 -0800 (PST)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vcoJJAvtBkQj88/yHiQ21jg1B1uQ2ogA+Qge6ZKdYYM=; b=hdLqJQpbcEuKEAuJa/NwA3HcsRwUcn0RmGS7DEuAiNHc7PbeGvetoab5m/IT8sQ+u8 KgCMMZO6NU2++vXKBi5x1VcEU/3gSpj8WivAb27yfiBkovvwGqEPmpSJg2xUhxVdvzyy 4hJ0/CQAzmTFPq8/VVqKYlpRKtfTdKTFOrLcoPzLiMUp/znQM30vH7Ze6iihE0U3VRrv j7fw4E3PHhQ7LbH7SYscKMABbJdOH6YRz9pBZCbpjNWCvMhGO/2GZJ/HVHP553LlqZqO KYb0g5Q9vPuArA4t6LmbdCaz1FHVxiVF3/tuoUZ5873BYmzxBdsROvge9rWXV0uS0QVj FbKQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlRLZeWD4/3rokQ2CV+aHUFeEzCZ5/JSKns8ae7IVMZWFOaOPJkssV++PjJxtZ6DbYwbLSX
X-Received: by 10.152.36.101 with SMTP id p5mr18674laj.67.1386203477435; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:31:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from 127.0.0.1 (tor-exit0-readme.dfri.se. [171.25.193.20]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id e10sm103336425laa.6.2013.12.04.16.31.05 for <multiple recipients> (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:31:16 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <529FC942.9050400@appelbaum.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 00:30:58 +0000
From: Jacob Appelbaum <jacob@appelbaum.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>
References: <E2DA1477-C86E-441E-A33D-D47A0D67AFF3@iab.org> <EF9BD1E4-6EF3-4035-AC4E-1A2D3CADE615@mnot.net> <529E8494.7000806@perens.com> <20131204111309.GB11727@nic.fr> <529F61D8.6030105@perens.com> <20131204171207.GC19914@thunk.org> <529F63C0.3040804@perens.com> <529F88AC.3090904@appelbaum.net> <529F90A0.8000706@perens.com> <529F9205.30906@appelbaum.net> <529F98C0.9090808@perens.com> <529F9F14.8050805@appelbaum.net> <529FB61A.7090604@perens.com> <529FBEF9.7030205@appelbaum.net> <529FC347.3080806@perens.com>
In-Reply-To: <529FC347.3080806@perens.com>
OpenPGP: id=4193A197
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: perpass@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01
X-BeenThere: perpass@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "The perpass list is for IETF discussion of pervasive monitoring. " <perpass.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/perpass>, <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/perpass/>
List-Post: <mailto:perpass@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perpass>, <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 00:31:23 -0000
Bruce Perens: > On 12/04/2013 03:47 PM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote: >> So basically, you were just blowing smoke? > No. The organization is charged to protect us. Us? Are you including the Dutch, German, Brazilian, Canadian, British and Swedes on the list? Or just 'us' Americans? It sounds to me like you're blowing smoke - specifically because they aren't actually protecting us in the ways that they assert. Global domination through criminal activity that results in hegemony? Sounds solidly protectionist but not in a way where we've consented! > However poorly or well it's > actually working, and I assume that I do not have the whole story either way. > They need reform, sure. Not elimination. Ah, I see, you think we need spies outside the rule of law - that pretty much sums up the problem. We either have the rule of law or we have this - that is how we found ourselves here. The fact that you're not entitled to know the whole story should tip you off that you might not want to give them the benefit of the doubt regarding reform. What is technically possible is effectively shown to be inevitable when the economics line up for the NSA and friends. Eliminate the NSA, they're (mass) criminals; the DNI lies to Congress. The NSA gives full feeds of their spying data to other nations. The examples are as boundless as BOUNDLESSINFORMANT and beyond. To boot they're hurting average Americans who write software. The taint of the NSA is like the Chinese state security all over Huawei gear. I think it is sadly deserved for many companies and their products. > > Throwing deliberate hurdles in their way is like spreading nails in the path of > a police car. Cops have more than enough abuses, but most people accept that > they do good stuff too, and nobody sensible suggests getting rid of them. I see that in your spare time, you're also a straw man factory; could you knock it off Bruce? It is surprisingly annoying and a total derailment. But while we're making funny jokes, I'll see you and raise you a muppet video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjMLZuuXDRQ Perhaps the discourse might be improved by not muddling intelligence services and police? ;-) >> Good luck with a Man-On-The-Side attack on .se. domains that are properly configured. > OK. But I'm horrified that .se is the best demo you can cite. DNSSEC has issues - a lack of query privacy for example - but what do you want? A full list of every DNSSEC enabled domain where someone has to steal keys to begin to perform such an attack? Here is some code by the way to implement QI: http://github.com/stealth/QI >> What political solution do you envision exactly? > Given the choice, I would roll increases in executive authority related to the > pursuit of war or espionage back to what we had before the PATRIOT act. This is > something we can state in one sentence and that makes sense. IMO it is a > workable campaign and one you should join. How do you propose that this will ensure we won't return here? And how will your political successes impact your safety when it is another government taking these actions? >> I'm really curious to >> hear how you're going to defend your computer or from attackers with >> nation state capabilities (or less) with a political solution. > How else can I defend my computer? I do not decieve myself that they are stopped > by any technical measure that you or I are capable of. They can break down the > door and water-board me if they want to. I am completely helpless before them > except for what I can achieve politically. Ah, I see. You're seriously wrong and pretty much provably so! The documents released by Snowden clearly state it - as an example in the Guardian Tor story, they specifically said that they can't deanonymize everyone all the time - it forces them to target and to target for memory corruption related exploitation specifically: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/04/nsa-gchq-attack-tor-network-encryption http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/04/tor-attacks-nsa-users-online-anonymity http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/oct/04/tor-stinks-nsa-presentation-document http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/oct/04/tor-high-secure-internet-anonymity Technical counter measures causes NSA dragnet surveillance to fail and it reduces them to specific targeting of individuals. If you are targeted, as I am no doubt targeted, you're right - you're probably not up for the task. Seriously though - I would encourage you not to mistake your inability with a general inability. I have computers where the NSA would be foolish to touch them because the moment that they do, I'll drop their technique, their payloads and everything related on the front page of a major news paper. A political and a technical solution all in one, as it should be, I might add. Properly implemented cryptography works wonders and it will help reduce a lot of suffering if we deploy it widely. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge this fact. All the best, Jacob
- [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01 Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… JOSEFSSON Erik
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Martin Millnert
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Yoav Nir
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… S Moonesamy
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Martin Thomson
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Andreas Kuckartz
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Ted Lemon
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… l.wood
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Ted Lemon
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Ted Lemon
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Ted Lemon
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Ted Lemon
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Eliot Lear
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… SM
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Andreas Kuckartz
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- [perpass] Egal wie man diskutiert (was: perens-pe… SM
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Paul Ferguson
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Andreas Kuckartz
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Ralf Skyper Kaiser
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… John Wroclawski
- [perpass] Using the abusrd isn't a compelling arg… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [perpass] Egal wie man diskutiert Hannes Tschofenig
- [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate-res… Bruce Perens
- [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate-res… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate… Christian Huitema
- Re: [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [perpass] Egal wie man diskutiert Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] Egal wie man diskutiert Kent_Landfield
- Re: [perpass] Egal wie man diskutiert Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Robin Wilton
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Robin Wilton
- Re: [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Albert Lunde
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Robin Wilton
- Re: [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate… Stephen Kent
- Re: [perpass] Fwd: Re: perens-perpass-appropriate… Stephen Kent
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Dave Crocker
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Richard Barnes
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Dave Crocker
- Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response… Bruce Perens