Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01

Jacob Appelbaum <> Wed, 04 December 2013 20:39 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost ( []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599611AE178 for <>; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 12:39:31 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 1.517
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FSL_HELO_BARE_IP_2=2, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.347, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77] autolearn=no
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R8MJKBdtippw for <>; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 12:39:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ( []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC791AE24E for <>; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 12:39:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: by with SMTP id en1so8806603wid.15 for <>; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:39:26 -0800 (PST)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UxJnaaeZsLHmaOrMC5aMpjQEj/xgQsDAWAAtmM4JGuY=; b=VyJ+TOAnd5nxs2/oebCB7inh/UWmBMWlZYKnmBP3Go3nafusBqxu/4jTMRzlrWpEyE S81Y5bhC234kzXZnVIqhcAr9fm/dLvT9NM6qDtkCgrweoP4btVuZvkyWEHpK/0FaD9tU 81exjQ2F+r+yww4qZPRh0fW/Hu6FLcTwR9GALWs971LPLJFtgcbz7BBXyRlpKGrBst3K UWk1spL+4pHd3zLEjxBCzvke4mnC9vMZGDVvwiniAm3pbSxKCnclAmoS8zqLK3hDW7gp KUyZ5uTUrixuk1BG/ibbruO2m5nl+I3GBAFOm7LkWRN4Am0+kv4hLBuvrIX2g2IlMv1W taVw==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmDljxa4wnsRk0WOo/dhRvjGZgNVtdrzIaj7QakuRNB38Pa5XLKYRyiwDmWbLE3hAeXtYQX
X-Received: by with SMTP id kd1mr48520359wjc.35.1386189566542; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:39:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ([]) by with ESMTPSA id d2sm10209767wik.11.2013. for <multiple recipients> (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:39:25 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:35:17 +0000
From: Jacob Appelbaum <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Bruce Perens <>
References: <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
In-Reply-To: <>
OpenPGP: id=4193A197
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <>,, Theodore Ts'o <>
Subject: Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "The perpass list is for IETF discussion of pervasive monitoring. " <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:39:31 -0000

Bruce Perens:
> On 12/04/2013 11:55 AM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote:
>> Dear Bruce,
>> Why do you dignify these actions as 'law enforcement' or even as
>> 'national defense' when we're discussing illegal spying?
> Because some of them are in my interest. And yours.

What about the illegal spying is in your interest? It certainly isn't in
my interest - I have been targeted for years by this spying and I most
certainly do not feel that it is in my interest.

I'm sure the non-Americans on the list would also love to hear about it too.

> We have a nasty part of government that thinks it is in an an endless war. Every 
> liberal nation, historically, discontinues its nice rights and protections 
> during wartime.

This is an oversimplification that is not legally correct.

> But I don't kid myself that nothing that they are doing is done to protect me 
> and others like me from a zillion nut-cases who conspire to do people harm and 
> sometimes actually carry it out. I have met some of those nut-cases.


> Every society chooses its balance between freedom and enforcement. Ours isn't 
> the right balance today, agreed. But the proposals I see here are the hacker 
> approach - we're not patient to deal with this as a political problem, so we'll 
> change everyone's web browser.

This is the number one vector for the TAO at the NSA, fyi. Ensuring that
Man-on-the-Side is impossible will improve the security of everyone.
There will be other attack vectors, of course.

>> Pervasive surveillance, censorship and malware is a serious threat regardless of your feelings about the NSA.
> And will continue to be so after all web transactions are encrypted. You're not 
> going to actually solve any problems.

I am actually working quite hard on solving these problems. We're having
this discussion partially because of my efforts, so please speak for
yourself and not for me, alright?

I look forward to seeing some more positive contributions from you. You
have a big brain and are a person of good character - come help us fix
the serious issues on the internet, Bruce.

All the best,