Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01

John Wroclawski <jtw@csail.mit.edu> Sat, 07 December 2013 00:00 UTC

Return-Path: <jtw@csail.mit.edu>
X-Original-To: perpass@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: perpass@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337F41AE132 for <perpass@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 6 Dec 2013 16:00:17 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.202
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PoEC-KqRSzh6 for <perpass@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 6 Dec 2013 16:00:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ana-server.csail.mit.edu (ana-server.csail.mit.edu [18.26.1.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA53E1AE0EA for <perpass@ietf.org>; Fri, 6 Dec 2013 16:00:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ana-server.csail.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5611C3FD26; Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:00:10 -0500 (EST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ana-server.csail.mit.edu
Received: from ana-server.csail.mit.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ana-server.csail.mit.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6OvT+1EtvjRB; Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:00:09 -0500 (EST)
Received: from [128.9.184.156] (unknown [128.9.184.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ana-server.csail.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 524FE1C3FD19; Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:00:09 -0500 (EST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1822\))
From: John Wroclawski <jtw@csail.mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <usl4a9lqfifltsv9gubnivpkkc5fufom58@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 16:00:04 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <AC664138-104F-47ED-B192-37968C549EF0@csail.mit.edu>
References: <529FB61A.7090604@perens.com> <529FBEF9.7030205@appelbaum.net> <529FC347.3080806@perens.com> <52A15835.2070901@cis-india.org> <52A21B80.8070005@mykolab.com> <52A21D1C.8020000@perens.com> <BC888A6F-F048-4BA6-92F4-8812753F8534@icsi.berkeley.edu> <52A2235A.2030801@perens.com> <ADD6858C-7548-479E-BB71-316E9C52F812@icsi.berkeley.edu> <c97f3134-eedf-44e1-880c-147efb172fc6@email.android.com> <CA+BZK2owfZuePi0kNe9ciVhpW95tSpwjq227u2jTj7ofc5kv-w@mail.gmail.com> <usl4a9lqfifltsv9gubnivpkkc5fufom58@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de>
To: Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1822)
Cc: perpass <perpass@ietf.org>, Ralf Skyper Kaiser <skyper@thc.org>
Subject: Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01
X-BeenThere: perpass@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "The perpass list is for IETF discussion of pervasive monitoring. " <perpass.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/perpass>, <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/perpass/>
List-Post: <mailto:perpass@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perpass>, <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 00:00:17 -0000

Folks interested in this line of discussion should definitely take a look at the writing of Daniel Solove, particularly “‘I’ve Got Nothing to Hide’ and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy”, available at <http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565>. Beyond that, his newer book <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300172311> covers this space and more in greater depth.

On Dec 6, 2013, at 3:32 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net> wrote:

> * Ralf Skyper Kaiser wrote:
>> Further on your "I have nothing to hide" argument  I kindly ask you to
>> install a video camera on
>> your toilet and send the link of the webcam to this list. Still nothing to
>> hide? Feeling good?
> 
> It is interesting that this counter-argument is extremely common to the
> exclusion of most others. For instance, it is rarely pointed out that
> while resources are expended searching those who have nothing to hide,
> those who do have something to hide have time to get away or to improve
> their hiding methods, dispose of whatever they are hiding, or to commit
> more actions that would justify searching them.
> 
> It is also uncommon to point out in response to this argument that by
> revealing things about ourself, we may also reveal things about others,
> which might do damage to common goods. You cannot have free elections,
> for instance, if most people reveal how they vote. I want others to hide
> how they voted so I can vote freely; so the Golden Rule gives me some-
> thing to hide.
> -- 
> Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
> Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
> 25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ 
> _______________________________________________
> perpass mailing list
> perpass@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perpass