Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-attack-00 was RE: perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01
Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com> Thu, 05 December 2013 04:04 UTC
Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: perpass@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: perpass@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52E51AE192 for <perpass@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 20:04:05 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZjgUQl1Z2AJh for <perpass@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 20:04:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-we0-x231.google.com (mail-we0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3040A1AE031 for <perpass@ietf.org>; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 20:04:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-we0-f177.google.com with SMTP id u56so232287wes.8 for <perpass@ietf.org>; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:03:59 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=NI0a7wfGHvFA3WPxh4wH7FLyTZaFTCjBTDbnYaJUDDw=; b=rlIKp/DqtNY4cTPdoUNdJkGFrFtigN9EM41U63mytVhbMAKixRj3trAZ7DNzHlBYqy 63Ty+iIuSrgPbeWk/I0EHeHDMAco9f70DwVGw5BTTmFT9Rm0dzxjGonmpGOiQT7Nk2ep bfuHZOpqZc2AYZlDIfmq7lLkBn/0HktcYN64yFg1z35jOctGsryomDKop3dI5wuBIMLZ V83GeJLPRDHmRh+0ZH6Np4rxxkrVtu39lRiZ5rAi5F8Q1ks23j6K+ngrv+DzpcJqvTWB XY7jZdY02BueVrlZrHXF5O+Sqrbrct+sHF7MCoyBB4W6VkNRpd9/L26JODg3QGwn5iIk tFSw==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.180.79.163 with SMTP id k3mr10018998wix.34.1386216239509; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:03:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.194.243.136 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 20:03:59 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <529FBC5F.7050700@perens.com>
References: <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E5103799@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <2C66A416-5F07-4803-A4C0-BB61734BA42E@nominum.com> <529FB216.7010504@perens.com> <CAMm+Lwjyp2eiVyqujnxiad9+iqUjkbJDhshB3+g-8fWkwgc5Vg@mail.gmail.com> <529FBC5F.7050700@perens.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 23:03:59 -0500
Message-ID: <CAMm+LwhnL-q_y6652c9zLbQOHf2MtJstRcP=SjomB-bjPAgZ8w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f46d043d655789ba7404ecc19e6d"
Cc: perpass <perpass@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-attack-00 was RE: perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01
X-BeenThere: perpass@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "The perpass list is for IETF discussion of pervasive monitoring. " <perpass.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/perpass>, <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/perpass/>
List-Post: <mailto:perpass@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perpass>, <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 04:04:05 -0000
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com> wrote: > On 12/04/2013 02:57 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > When someone starts accusing everyone of treason it isn't so much > refutation that is appropriate as the men in white coats. > > Oh, come on Phillip. I did not accuse anyone, I said that it was arguably > criminal or treasonous, and warned of the danger to you. > It seemed like more of a threat to me. The NSA is very aware of the work that I am doing and its purpose. I presented the work at MIT the week before Vancouver with several current NSA employees present and a former NSA director. One thing we know the NSA is going to need is usable data level security. The only thing that differentiates my proposal from previous ones is that (1) it requires exactly the same degree of effort as regular mail, (2) it does not depend on building out infrastructure before deployment and (3) it supports a policy layer so that in addition to discovering the recipient's key, an application can determine the security policy of the recipient. In other words, what differentiates my proposal is that it has a chance of keeping Britain, American and their allies safe against the attacks that are now going to be coming from all the other governments that are now going to be playing copycat in the wake of Snowdonia. The NSA is charged with two missions, not one. Protecting the US and its allies from attack is far more important than attacking other countries. The US has an electricity infrastructure that would embarrass many third world countries, it has been defeated by squirrels let alone cyber-attacks. Cyberwarfare has many of the same characteristics as terrorism. the barriers to entry are low. It is inherently non-attributable and so deterrence is infeasible. Any attempt to set red lines opens up the risk of a false flag attack. And what might shock you is that people who have spent their lives studying war had to have that pointed out by me. Cyber is inherently destabilizing. And the risk is not just of a cyber attack against the US and its allies. An attack against Russia or China could lead to catastrophic consequences as well. Neither has the capacity to develop an effective cyber defense in their critical infrastructure unless the western powers develop the technology first. One of the ugly costs of relying on industrial espionage is that it destroys any chance of developing an indigenous research capacity. The issues are vastly more complex than you imagine. NSA 1.0 spent its time cracking mechanical ciphers to enable the CIA coups that stopped when the world moved to digital in the mid 70s. NSA 2.0 grew large fat and lazy while its military management spent their time boosting each other's egos with (unsecured) Powerpoint presentations that almost certainly exaggerate their capabilities. We don't know what NSA 3.0 is going to be doing but it isn't going to have anything like the intercept capabilities of the past and it will be two congresses before they have any ability to shape the political landscape again. -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/
- [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-attac… l.wood
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Ted Lemon
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… l.wood
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Ted Lemon
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Jacob Appelbaum
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Bruce Perens
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Josh Howlett
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Josh Howlett
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Josh Howlett
- Re: [perpass] Commnets on draft-farrell-perpass-a… Stephen Farrell
- [perpass] Tiny stacks Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Richard Barnes
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Robin Wilton
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Paul Ferguson
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Hannes Tschofenig
- [perpass] Way forward? [Was: Tiny stacks] Martin Millnert
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Richard Barnes
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Martin Thomson
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Stephen Farrell
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Richard Barnes
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Richard Barnes
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Stephen Farrell
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Stephen Farrell
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Stephen Farrell
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Robin Wilton
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Scott Brim
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Scott Brim
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [perpass] Tiny stacks Dean Willis