Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
"Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com> Tue, 14 July 2020 11:50 UTC
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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Hongji Zhao <hongji.zhao@ericsson.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>, "pim-chairs@ietf.org" <pim-chairs@ietf.org>, "pim@ietf.org" <pim@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:50:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Hongji, Having discussed this with Eric, I would also be happy with the suggestion that he proposes (i.e. of having a single combined tree that covers both IGMP snooping and MLD snooping), so it is another option for you to please consider. Regards, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > Sent: 14 July 2020 12:28 > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; Hongji Zhao > <hongji.zhao@ericsson.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; > aretana.ietf@gmail.com > Cc: Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>; pim-chairs@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping- > yang-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > It seems that similar issues keep repeating for IPv4 and IPv6 (e.g. RFC > 8652)... Either two trees in one module or two modules (one per address > family). > > While I am not a YANG expert, I would assume that network operators would > prefer a unified models (of course with specific leaves & containers) when > operating a dual-stack network rather than duplicating their automation > effort. > > As long as IPv6 is covered, I am OK (per my COMMENT on this I-D) but > unsure whether 2 modules/2 trees should be the 'way to go'... For SNMP, > RFC 4292/4293 was made protocol version independent which is a big plus > IMHO for operations. > > -éric > > -----Original Message----- > From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" > <rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > Date: Tuesday, 14 July 2020 at 10:58 > To: Hongji Zhao <hongji.zhao@ericsson.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, > "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> > Cc: Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>, "pim-chairs@ietf.org" <pim- > chairs@ietf.org>, "pim@ietf.org" <pim@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld- > snooping-yang@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang@ietf.org> > Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping- > yang-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > Hi Hongji, > > There are 3 choices here: > > (1) Put both models in the same YANG module, use common groupings, and > then use top level features to enable/disable the functionality. I.e., > this is what the draft currently does. > > Benefits: > - One module > - Use of groupings ensure the contents are aligned. > > Downsides: > - Undesirable top level IGMP/MLD features > - Somewhat unclear description statements (since the descriptions > reference both IGMP and MLD even when they only apply to one protocol). > > > (2) Split the work into 3 YANG models: > (i) Common IGMP/MLD groupings/features, i.e. the same shared > groupings that you have now. > (ii) IGMP snooping module (importing shared groupings) > (iii) MLD snooping module (importing shared groupings) > > Benefits: > - Avoids top level IGMP/MLD features > - Use of groupings ensures the contents are aligned > > Downsides: > - Somewhat unclear description statements (since the descriptions > reference both IGMP and MLD even when they only apply to one protocol). > - Note, the 'refine' statement could be used where the groupings are > used (RFC 7950 sec 7.13.2) to potentially improve the descriptions. > Otherwise possibly some of the description statements could be slightly > reworded to avoid referencing back to IGMP or MLD. > - Some features would need to belong the common module unless the > data nodes using those features were taken out of the common groupings > > (3) Split the work into 2 separate modules > (i) IGMP snooping module > (ii) MLD snooping module > > Benefits: > - Avoids top level IGMP/MLD features > - Description statements are clear (since they always only refer to > the protocol they act on) > - Features are controllable for each protocol separately (not sure if > this is a benefit or a downside) > > Downsides: > - Duplicate definitions, more potential to get out of sync in future, > although given that they are both defined in the same document, that > doesn't seem too likely. > > > My preference is for (3). I believe that makes it much easier/clearer > to an operator to see whether one/both IGMP and MLD snooping is supported. > > However, this is just a preference, and I also want to see IETF YANG > models completed and standardized. I.e., I will not block progression of > this document if the authors & Alvaro thinks that the existing module > structure is sufficient, or choose to do (2) instead. > > Regards, > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Hongji Zhao <hongji.zhao@ericsson.com> > > Sent: 14 July 2020 04:26 > > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; The IESG > <iesg@ietf.org> > > Cc: draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang@ietf.org; pim- > chairs@ietf.org; > > pim@ietf.org; Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>; aretana.ietf@gmail.com > > Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld- > snooping- > > yang-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Hi Robert, > > > > Thanks a lot for your comments. > > > > In this YANG model, four of six groupings are common for both igmp > > snooping and mld snooping. > > If it is splitted into two separate YANG models, there will be a lot > of > > duplicated contents. Is it ok? Thank you very much. > > > > > > > > BR/Hongji > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> > > Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 5:55 PM > > To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org> > > Cc: draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang@ietf.org; pim- > chairs@ietf.org; > > pim@ietf.org; Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; > > stig@venaas.com > > Subject: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld- > snooping-yang- > > 17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang-17: Discuss > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss- > criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping- > yang/ > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > DISCUSS: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > > Hi, > > > > I appreciate that this YANG model has already passed a YANG doctor > review, > > but this discuss is to understand the reasoning as to why both IGMP > > snooping and MLD snooping are in the same YANG module, yet have top > level > > features to separate their functionality. > > > > 4. IGMP and MLD Snooping YANG Module > > > > feature igmp-snooping { > > description > > "Support IGMP snooping."; > > reference > > "RFC 4541"; > > } > > > > feature mld-snooping { > > description > > "Support MLD snooping."; > > reference > > "RFC 4541"; > > } > > > > It seems strange to me to have the entire YANG Model split under two > > separate feature statements. I believe that it would have been > better to > > split this into two separate YANG models, both following the same > > structure. Possibly, a common YANG module could have been used to > share > > groupings and definitions, but even then duplicating the contents of > the > > model so that the description statements could be correct/accurate > would > > be more helpful. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > COMMENT: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > > Thank you for your work on this document and YANG model. I also > have a > > few minor comments/suggestions that may improve the document and > YANG > > module: > > > > 2. Design of Data Model > > > > An IGMP/MLD snooping switch [RFC4541] analyzes IGMP/MLD packets > and > > sets > > up forwarding tables for multicast traffic. If a switch does not > run > > IGMP/MLD snooping, multicast traffic will be flooded in the > broadcast > > domain. If a switch runs IGMP/MLD snooping, multicast traffic > will be > > forwarded based on the forwarding tables to avoid wasting > bandwidth. > > The > > IGMP/MLD snooping switch does not need to run any of the > IGMP/MLD > > protocols. Because the IGMP/MLD snooping is independent of the > > IGMP/MLD > > protocols, the data model defined in this document does not > augment, > > or > > even require, the IGMP/MLD data model defined in [RFC8652]. > > The model covers considerations for Internet Group Management > Protocol > > (IGMP) and Multicast Listener Discovery (MLD) Snooping Switches > > [RFC4541]. > > > > It wasn't clear to me what the final sentence was trying to say. > Perhaps > > it should be merged with the penultimate sentence in the paragraph? > > > > The YANG module includes IGMP and MLD Snooping instance > definition, > > using instance in the scenario of BRIDGE [dot1Qcp] and L2VPN > [draft- > > ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang]. The module also includes actions for > clearing > > IGMP and MLD Snooping group tables. > > > > I find the use of the terminology of "scenario of " to be somewhat > > strange. I would probably have referred to these a "L2 forwarding > > pradigms" or "L2 forwarding instances". If this terminology is > changed > > then it would need to be fixed elsewhere in this document and the > YANG > > model. > > > > On the other hand, operational state parameters are not so > widely > > designated as features, as there are many cases where the > defaulting > > of an operational state parameter would not cause any harm to > the > > system, and it is much more likely that an implementation > without > > native support for a piece of operational state would be able to > > derive > > a suitable value for a state variable that is not natively > supported. > > > > With NMDA, the server also has the option of not returning a value > for a > > given item of operational data (RFC 8342, section 5,3, paragraph 4). > > Although this doesn't conform to the data model, the semantics are > well > > defined - i.e. the client cannot infer anything about the value that > has > > not been returned. > > > > 2.3. Position of Address Family in Hierarchy > > > > IGMP Snooping only supports IPv4, while MLD Snooping only > supports > > IPv6. > > The data model defined in this document can be used for both > IPv4 and > > IPv6 address families. > > > > This document defines IGMP Snooping and MLD Snooping as separate > > schema > > branches in the structure. The benefits are: > > > > * The model can support IGMP Snooping (IPv4), MLD Snooping > (IPv6), or > > both optionally and independently. Such flexibility cannot be > achieved > > cleanly with a combined branch. > > > > * The separate branches for IGMP Snooping and MLD Snooping can > > accommodate their differences better and cleaner. The two > branches can > > better support different features and node types. > > > > I would suggest rewording this first sentence to something like: > > > > "Having separate branches for IGMP Snooping and MLD Snooping allows > minor > > differences in their behavior to be modelled more simply and > cleanly". > > > > 3. Module Structure > > > > A configuration data node is marked as mandatory only when its > value > > must be provided by the user. Where nodes are not essential to > > protocol > > operation, they are marked as optional. Some other nodes are > > essential > > but have a default specified, so that they are also optional and > need > > not be configured explicitly. > > > > This paragraph seems to just describe standard YANG modelling and > can be > > removed. > > > > 3.1. IGMP Snooping Instances > > > > The value of scenario in igmp-snooping-instance is bridge or > l2vpn. > > When it > > is bridge, igmp-snooping-instance will be used in the BRIDGE > > > > As per previous comments, this first sentence does not read well for > me. > > > > The values of bridge-mrouter-interface, l2vpn-mrouter-interface- > ac, > > l2vpn-mrouter-interface-pw are filled by the snooping device > > dynamically. > > They are different from static-bridge-mrouter-interface, > > static-l2vpn-mrouter-interface-ac, and static-l2vpn-mrouter- > interface- > > pw > > which are configured > > > > Ideally, these static nodes would not have been necessary, instead > relying > > on the NMDA split between configuration and state, but that would > probably > > require the default model to always allow them to be statically > > configured. In NMDA, features can be implemented per-datastore but > it is > > not clear how well that would work here. > > > > units one-tenth-second; > > > > Perhaps "units deciseconds" would be better? > > > > grouping igmp-snooping-statistics { > > description > > "The statistics attributes for IGMP snooping."; > > > > leaf num-query { > > type yang:counter64; > > description > > "The number of Membership Query messages."; > > reference > > "RFC 2236"; > > } > > > > For these counters, rather than "num-XXX", I think that they would > be > > better as "XXX-count", or if these relate to the number of packets > "XXX- > > pkts" (as per RFC 8343). > > > > container statistics { > > description > > "The interface statistics for IGMP snooping"; > > > > container received { > > description > > "Statistics of received IGMP snooping packets."; > > > > uses igmp-snooping-statistics; > > } > > container sent { > > description > > "Statistics of sent IGMP snooping packets."; > > > > uses igmp-snooping-statistics; > > } > > } > > > > Should the descriptions for received and sent be for "snooped IGMP > > packets"? > > The equivalent MLD structure probably also needs a similar fix. > > > > >
- [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-pim-i… Robert Wilton via Datatracker
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Hongji Zhao
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Alvaro Retana
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Hongji Zhao
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Hongji Zhao
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Hongji Zhao
- Re: [pim] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-p… Hongji Zhao