Re: [pkix] How do we differentiate authentic servers from proxies performing TLS interception?

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> Tue, 24 November 2015 22:35 UTC

Return-Path: <noloader@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: pkix@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: pkix@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1A41A90C8 for <pkix@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:35:57 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uk7hgYmZv4Fq for <pkix@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:35:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-io0-x236.google.com (mail-io0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0118C1A90C5 for <pkix@ietf.org>; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:35:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: by iouu10 with SMTP id u10so36483539iou.0 for <pkix@ietf.org>; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:35:55 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=r9F+rZJxg9kdqv6TLDfwn1e/j+Y9EQG5Sss0hmuVYXk=; b=pcUeqPed3kN0tBg3qxhYcGDPn/cYkWTimPPxSp4gGqOErxdxX59klu6nVBoOvOCI53 jkkd9V25kiTKDKCAqTz8Goailcw8VDGNcW5RE1DI+h7Cwscox+CRIGbTFwvA7eEK/dSp 7cT6YShHlfzOambcezdgyTAwo/iihlxE3C0BTxw57P1+MX+YeoLE3mJ4U7XZmtOaInSV TmqdV2wwZv2rMDbQLX60CWsSOV75YRy/+8NItdYw36wJ281GpzXWewgmwDUFMikK2DoD ZxV0sJ7CnLnMcnzu5IjHg+zINR7bgTBU/ap4BHqB597MNu9Vr0ZYdMJxnkeazc9NUlkP tSsQ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.107.28.140 with SMTP id c134mr26184121ioc.122.1448404555384; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:35:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.36.80.206 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:35:55 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CAK6vND9Z2jmc_b71Bit-=4yO5n7_cX4V+7UGM_JsYbbkgWi33w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BY2PR09MB1094EA71ADDC83440AE82F2AE120@BY2PR09MB109.namprd09.prod.outlook.com> <20151112163810.E8F351A368@ld9781.wdf.sap.corp> <BY2PR09MB109B9B70BC1746B516CB335AE120@BY2PR09MB109.namprd09.prod.outlook.com> <CAH8yC8n41uA-Aj3pLKRHgjGu1P6smwG-r-dA595rXHMjhAZC_A@mail.gmail.com> <BY2PR09MB10945A7D32E11E8C5E74750AE120@BY2PR09MB109.namprd09.prod.outlook.com> <201511152227.tAFMRTjH000463@d01av04.pok.ibm.com> <6ADE63A8-8B81-48F5-BF37-F91B734935C3@mitre.org> <CAH8yC8=XK12R=ox=Uw2jYyk_z0ukB4nbpeVbiyb-ZGOKMSskFQ@mail.gmail.com> <5E42AC43-684C-4CCE-900C-1CD20E88267F@mitre.org> <CAH8yC8mk7MnFa34507-z_ERZFba675bQ+VR-wrreC8w2O=-LHg@mail.gmail.com> <690F0024-1027-49DE-809F-DC89E68B3DD9@mitre.org> <CAH8yC8my4kPh4gCw1PxKNzeQiatBsc2bqi+Y3Tf_4dxtUMatfw@mail.gmail.com> <CAK6vND9Z2jmc_b71Bit-=4yO5n7_cX4V+7UGM_JsYbbkgWi33w@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:35:55 -0500
Message-ID: <CAH8yC8=zwiiSUG7S=+BQLYZY4R8GcHY5ZRE=yguBGPASw13cXA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com>
To: Peter Bowen <pzbowen@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pkix/F5zwqVjDb9IwNCIgv1oUIun2x24>
Cc: PKIX <pkix@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [pkix] How do we differentiate authentic servers from proxies performing TLS interception?
X-BeenThere: pkix@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
Reply-To: noloader@gmail.com
List-Id: PKIX Working Group <pkix.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/pkix>, <mailto:pkix-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/pkix/>
List-Post: <mailto:pkix@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:pkix-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pkix>, <mailto:pkix-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:35:57 -0000

>> So let me wrap this up... What is the IETF and/or PKIX going to
>> provide us with to discern between authentic servers and
>> proxied/intercepted connections now that Public Key Pinning with
>> Overrides is here?
>>
>> What do I tell my developers?
>
> I'm a little lost.  What are you trying to achieve?  Assuming your
> developers are writing a client app, I see several scenarios:

We are trying to determine when to break a known good pinset for those
who provide a conforming user agent.

Its still not clear to me how to determine the "good" bad guys from
the "bad" bad guys.

Jeff