Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Sat, 09 November 2013 01:56 UTC
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2013 17:56:34 -0800
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To: "Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com" <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>
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Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, pntaw@ietf.org, Parthasarathi R <partha@parthasarathi.co.in>
Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
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On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 3:58 PM, <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com> wrote: > Hi Justin, > > > > It’s great to hear that at least one browser will be able to do ICE-TCP. > It is an optimization, but definitely a useful one for certain central > server and gateway situations. I have heard also from other service/gateway > providers that they want to avoid the TURN-TCP “hop” for the same reasons > you state. After listening to them, I’d say ICE-TCP ought to be rather a > “SHOULD” instead of “MAY” in the RTCWeb NAT traversal framework. > Sounds good. > > > I suppose that when real-time media runs over TCP, it is in general best > to avoid bundling, but to run the different medias over separate TCP > connections. That way a single lost packet only affects the rate of one of > the medias instead of the aggregate. > > > That is an interesting idea, but I think it is probably difficult to make work because the BUNDLE decision happens separately from ICE candidate pair selection. I think what we really want is some sort of multi-TCP transport, where we can open several simultaneous TCP connections and rotate between them. Or maybe a Minion TCP-based approach. These would have their own issues, but be conceptually simpler. > I wonder if you already have a plan in Chrome if and how to deal with > HTTP (and TLS) restricted firewalls. Are you OK with the idea of connecting > to a TURN server with HTTP CONNECT, or do you see some issues with that? > We already use HTTP CONNECT with ICE-TCP, TURN-TCP, and TURN-TLS. It works. > > > Markus > > > > > > *From:* pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *ext Justin Uberti > *Sent:* 09 November, 2013 01:33 > *To:* Parthasarathi R > *Cc:* Harald Alvestrand; pntaw@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > > > > FWIW: we use ICE-TCP to connect to a conferencing server, instead of > TURN-TCP, to avoid the extra TURN hop and the whole TURN credentials > business. It's an optimization for sure, but a useful one. > > > > I don't think ICE-TCP will be all that useful for P2P connectivity in the > near future. The scenarios that require ICE-TCP are the exact ones where > simultaneous open will probably be impossible. > > > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Parthasarathi R < > partha@parthasarathi.co.in> wrote: > > Hi Harald & all, > > I agree that ICE-TCP qualifies for "MAY" requirement in case both browsers > are behind firewall. ICE-TCP is good for usecase wherein only one of the > browsers is behind firewall. Existing WebRTC usecase namely FedEx call is > good example for only one browser behind firewall wherein IVR is not going > to be behind UDP blocking firewall. In those usecases, ICE-TCP candidates > has merits over TURN relay candidates. IMO, ICE-TCP MUST be considered. > > The current WebRTC FW usecase is (accidentially) inline with one of the > browser behind firewall scenario as mentioned in sec 3.3.2.1 of > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-12: > > > "The difference is that one of the users is behind a NAT that blocks UDP > traffic." > > Thanks > Partha > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > > Of Harald Alvestrand > > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:33 PM > > To: pntaw@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > > > > On 10/15/2013 06:15 PM, Dan Wing wrote: > > > On Oct 14, 2013, at 11:02 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > <tireddy@cisco.com> wrote: > > > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Dan > > >>> Wing (dwing) > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:31 AM > > >>> To: Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com > > >>> Cc: pntaw@ietf.org; partha@parthasarathi.co.in > > >>> Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Oct 14, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hi, > > >>>> > > >>>> In practice I doubt you find many situations where UDP is > > completely blocked > > >>> but incoming TCP connections from anywhere are allowed. > > >>> > > >>> Agreed. > > >>> > > >>> But if both ends are trying to communicate with each other, their > > >>> communications will appear as a TCP simultaneous-open. That could > > (in fact, > > >>> "should") work across a firewall because the firewall will see an > > outbound SYN > > >>> to a host/port after which it will see an inbound SYN from that > > same > > >>> host/port. > > >> But firewall TCP inspection causes the inbound SYN from the same > > host/port to be dropped (Firewalls typically do not permit TCP > > simultaneous-open). Even with NAT as per the survey results in ICE TCP > > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6544#appendix-A) TCP simultaneous-open > > worked only in roughly 45% of the cases. > > > If avoiding TURN improves the user experience, and IT policy says TCP > > is allowed, I expect firewall vendors would make sure TCP simultaneous > > open works. > > > > > > > > If something improves the user experience if it is possible to do it, > > but the basic functionality works without it, and it's unclear whether > > the special circumstances under which it's going to improve the user > > experience in fact exist in the field, I think that's perfect for a MAY > > implement. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pntaw mailing list > > pntaw@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw > > _______________________________________________ > pntaw mailing list > pntaw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw > > >
- [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Simon Perreault
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ted Hardie
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti