Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
"Parthasarathi R" <partha@parthasarathi.co.in> Tue, 08 October 2013 17:53 UTC
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From: Parthasarathi R <partha@parthasarathi.co.in>
To: 'Bernard Aboba' <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>, 'Harald Alvestrand' <harald@alvestrand.no>
References: <CAGTXFp92jSzQz05uHngzscz88n=fT_JPbEvQRxgeUUqPVRQUyQ@mail.gmail.com> <52244DD7.1020900@alvestrand.no> <BLU405-EAS183E36A927CA42270B6936D93300@phx.gbl> <522590EE.7070508@alvestrand.no> <C632A223-A55A-47F4-B083-9BDC447DA959@cisco.com> <52262657.3080208@alvestrand.no> <A2C315DB-1882-4BD1-A8C0-E8AF7DEA48F4@cisco.com> <00ca01cec387$f881cae0$e98560a0$@co.in> <BLU406-EAS274696C3D9DFE505F96B8E393130@phx.gbl>
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Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 23:22:46 +0530
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Cc: pntaw@ietf.org, 'Dan Wing' <dwing@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
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Hi Bernard/Harald, I understand that two WebRTC endpoint are behind firewall scenario wherein TURN server is unavoidable. Most of the SP & Enterprise deployment wherein one of the endpoint is not surely going to be behind UDP blocking Firewall, mandating TURN server as a mechanism is overkill. As ICE is mandated in WebRTC, supporting ICE-TCP should not be such a complex activity. Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Bernard Aboba > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:03 AM > To: Parthasarathi R > Cc: Harald Alvestrand; pntaw@ietf.org; Dan Wing > Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > > As you point out, in most cases ICE-TCP will not avoid use of TURN, so > we are only talking about a modest efficiency gain for ICE-TCP and RTP > over TCP, but a substantial increase in complexity. > > Running SCTP over TCP is undesirable because the congestion control in > SCTP and TCP will interact poorly with each other. > > > On Oct 7, 2013, at 11:07 AM, "Parthasarathi R" > <partha@parthasarathi.co.in> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > RTP over TCP is unavoidable in case of RTCWeb media traffic has to > traverse > > through UDP blocking firewalls. TCP candidates with ICE (RFC 6544) > may fail > > due to the current OS implementation wherein TCP simultaneous Open > will not > > work. > > > > I have concern w.r.t TURN server as it introduces one extra network > element > > for RTCWeb session establishment. The current argument favoring for > TURN > > server is that RTP over TCP is required only till TURN server whereas > the > > media traffic between TURN server and the destination is UDP. In > couple of > > WebRTC deployment in Service provider network and Enterprise network, > TURN > > server will exist near to the destination and the WebRTC media > traffic in > > the internet is "RTP over TCP". I guess that Victor scenario falls > under the > > same category. In these deployment, RTP over TCP has advantage over > TURN > > over TCP as the extra element shall be avoided. > > > > Also, SCTP over DTLS over UDP will not work in case of RTCWeb media > traffic > > has to traverse through UDP blocking firewalls. So, there is a need > of SCTP > > over DTLS over TCP or multipath TCP kind of transport to meet this > > requirement which needs separate discussion. > > > > Thanks > > Partha > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf > >> Of Dan Wing > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 1:47 AM > >> To: Harald Alvestrand > >> Cc: Bernard Aboba; pntaw@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > >> > >> > >> On Sep 3, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Harald Alvestrand > <harald@alvestrand.no> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> On 09/03/2013 07:25 PM, Dan Wing wrote: > >>>>> Multiple TCP connections seems like a suboptimal design, given > the > >> existence of other solutions like Minion or SCTP. > >>>> Sure. But those technologies weren't on the table when Victor did > >> interactive audio/video over TCP, I'm sure. Much like they weren't > on > >> the table when HTTP started doing multiple TCP connections back in > the > >> early days of Netscape. > >>> > >>> Victor didn't provide a date, so I was thinking "recently" - SCTP > is > >> 10 years old at this point. > >> > >> SCTP has been around a long time as a protocol but for a variety of > >> reasons has seen no deployment on the Internet to date, including no > >> availability in the mainstream OSs which is everyone's interest. > SCTP- > >> over-UDP was only recently defined and its user-mode release was > only > >> 12 or 18 months ago or so. > >> > >>> Minion is newer than that, of course. > >>>> > >>>>> If both sides have TURN over TCP (or TURN over HTTP) enabled, and > >> their respective TURN servers can talk UDP to each other, > communication > >> will occur, I think. I don't think we need to add TCP candidates for > >> the TURN case in order to bypass firewalls. > >>>>> > >>>>> We might want to do so for the benefit of the pure peer-to-peer > >> case, but I'm not sure it's a case that's important enough to make > 6062 > >> (TURN TCP allocations) or 6544 (ICE TCP allocations, no TURN server) > >> into MUSTs for RTCWEB. > >>>> I agree. Additionally, before anyone ventures too far down that > >> path it would be useful to understand how well the expected RTCWeb > >> endpoints could do peer-to-peer TCP connections. Reliable peer-to- > peer > >> TCP needs TCP simultaneous open needs to work well on both hosts, > per > >> the research by Saikat Guha and Paul Francis > >> > http://conferences.sigcomm.org/imc/2005/papers/imc05efiles/guha/guha.pd > >> f. In that research, they found Windows XP SP1 doesn't do > simultaneous > >> open well, but Windows XP with SP2 and SP3 and Linux worked okay. I > >> have not seen similar research for Android, OS X, or Windows 7 or > >> Windows 8. > >>> Indeed; that article seemed to indicate that the brand of NAT you > >> bought was a decisive factor - it would be interesting to see if the > >> state of the art has become more or less symmetric-TCP hostile in > the > >> intervening 8 years. > >> > >> -d > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> pntaw mailing list > >> pntaw@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pntaw mailing list > > pntaw@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw > _______________________________________________ > pntaw mailing list > pntaw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw
- [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Simon Perreault
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ted Hardie
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti