Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
"Parthasarathi R" <partha@parthasarathi.co.in> Mon, 14 October 2013 18:31 UTC
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From: Parthasarathi R <partha@parthasarathi.co.in>
To: "'Chenxin (Xin)'" <hangzhou.chenxin@huawei.com>, Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com, simon.perreault@viagenie.ca, pntaw@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
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Xin, <snip> The > advantage > >with > >Media over HTTP is that HTTP friendly firewall shall filter out media > from > >HTTP traffic if required. > [xin] And media over websocket should be a option. The sub-protocol > attribute in websokcet could also provide the firewall friendly > information, so the firewall could decide to filter out the media or > not. </snip> Agreed. I'll write DTLS-SRTP over WebSocket draft for more clarity. Please read inline. Thanks Partha > -----Original Message----- > From: Chenxin (Xin) [mailto:hangzhou.chenxin@huawei.com] > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 9:28 AM > To: Parthasarathi R; Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com; > simon.perreault@viagenie.ca; pntaw@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > > Hi > >Hi all, > > > >As I mentioned below, ICE-TCP is not replacement for TURN but ICE-TCP > helps > >for the browser-to-browser media flow without middle box (TURN > Server). > >Also, please note that both browsers behind UDP blocked firewall is > not the > >worst case scenario for WebRTC firewall requirements. The actual worst > case > >scenario is that both browsers are behind HTTP only firewalls and in > this > >scenario, both TURN server and ICE-TCP will not work. There is a need > of one > >more solution. > > > >AFAIK, HTTP allowing firewall is not happen by mis-configuration but > it is > >policy of the given network. It is more appropriate to pass the media > over > >HTTP based mechanism rather than finding the workarounds. The > advantage > >with > >Media over HTTP is that HTTP friendly firewall shall filter out media > from > >HTTP traffic if required. > [xin] And media over websocket should be a option. The sub-protocol > attribute in websokcet could also provide the firewall friendly > information, so the firewall could decide to filter out the media or > not. > > IMO, Media over HTTP based mechanism has to be > >used for HTTP only firewall (Sec 3.2.3 of > >draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements) requirement and ICE-TCP > shall > >be used for (Sec 3.2.3 of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and- > requirements) > >requirement. > > [Xin] I think you means ICE-TCP shall be used for (*Sec 3.2.2* of > draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements) requirement.:) <Partha> Thanks for the indicating the cut&paste issue :-(. Your thinking is correct. </Partha> > > Thanks, > Xin > > > >Thanks > >Partha > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf > >> Of Chenxin (Xin) > >> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 7:23 AM > >> To: Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com; partha@parthasarathi.co.in; > >> simon.perreault@viagenie.ca; pntaw@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > >> > >> Hi > >> > >> I agree that ICE-TCP should not replace TURN as a requirement for > >> every browser to implement. If we need support ICE-TCP , should we > >> support TURN-TCP too? I do not think ICE-TCP will be more useful > >> without TURN-TCP in the scenario where both browsers is under the > NAT > >> /FW which block UDP. > >> > >> I believe the user 1->TCP->TURN server 1->UDP->TURN server 2->TCP- > >> >user 2, which Harald wrote before is workable. It is easy to tunnel > >> the data internally if we need use the same server, right? > >> > >> Best Regards, > >> Xin > >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- > >> >From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf > >> Of > >> >Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com > >> >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:30 AM > >> >To: partha@parthasarathi.co.in; simon.perreault@viagenie.ca; > >> pntaw@ietf.org > >> >Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > >> > > >> >Hi, > >> > > >> >I think the clarification is that it is not possible to initiate > TCP > >> connections from > >> >the "outside" of any NAT or most of the firewalls. So even if the > FW > >> does not > >> >block TCP per se, it only allows TCP connections to be opened from > the > >> "inside". > >> > > >> >I believe ICE-TCP will typically work only in cases where at least > one > >> of the > >> >endpoints is NOT behind a NAT or FW. In cases where both endpoints > are > >> behind > >> >firewalls completely blocking all UDP, the only option is to use a > >> relay (TURN) > >> >with endpoint initiated TCP connections. ICE allows us to optimize > >> connectivity > >> >in special cases, but I think we need also to make the worst case > >> scenarios to > >> >work. For that reason I don't see that ICE-TCP could replace TURN > as a > >> >requirement for every browser to implement. In some specific > >> deployments it > >> >may be that TURN does not get used much or at all, but browsers are > >> used > >> >everywhere. > >> > > >> >Markus > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On > >> Behalf > >> >> Of ext Parthasarathi R > >> >> Sent: 09 October, 2013 20:01 > >> >> To: 'Simon Perreault'; pntaw@ietf.org > >> >> Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > >> >> > >> >> Hi Simon, > >> >> > >> >> I have seen only two requirements in > >> >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-11, NAT/FW that > blocks > >> UDP > >> >> and FW that only allows http. The relevant draft snippet is > attached > >> as a note > >> >> of this mail. I'm discussing about NAT/FW that blocks UDP > >> requirement. In > >> >> case you foresee that the requirement is not detailed now, we > need > >> to sort > >> >> out the requirement first before discussion the solutions. > >> >> > >> >> Regards > >> >> Partha > >> >> > >> >> PS: In draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-11 snippet, > >> >> > >> >> 3.2.2. Simple Video Communication Service, NAT/FW that blocks > UDP > >> >> > >> >> 3.2.2.1. Description > >> >> > >> >> This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video > >> Communication > >> >> Service use-case (Section 3.2.1). The difference is that one > of > >> the > >> >> users is behind a NAT that blocks UDP traffic. > >> >> > >> >> 3.2.3. Simple Video Communication Service, FW that only allows > http > >> >> > >> >> 3.2.3.1. Description > >> >> > >> >> This use-case is almost identical to the Simple Video > >> Communication > >> >> Service use-case (Section 3.2.1). The difference is that one > of > >> the > >> >> users is behind a FW that only allows http traffic. > >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On > >> >> Behalf > >> >> > Of Simon Perreault > >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 11:55 PM > >> >> > To: pntaw@ietf.org > >> >> > Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP > >> >> > > >> >> > Le 2013-10-08 19:52, Parthasarathi R a écrit : > >> >> > > I understand that two WebRTC endpoint are behind firewall > >> scenario > >> >> > wherein > >> >> > > TURN server is unavoidable. Most of the SP & Enterprise > >> deployment > >> >> > wherein > >> >> > > one of the endpoint is not surely going to be behind UDP > >> blocking > >> >> > Firewall, > >> >> > > mandating TURN server as a mechanism is overkill. As ICE is > >> mandated > >> >> > in > >> >> > > WebRTC, supporting ICE-TCP should not be such a complex > >> activity. > >> >> > > >> >> > A firewall that blocks UDP but allows incoming TCP is not very > >> common, > >> >> > is it? > >> >> > > >> >> > Or did I miss something? > >> >> > > >> >> > Simon > >> >> > -- > >> >> > DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> > http://postellation.viagenie.ca > >> >> > NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca > >> >> > STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > pntaw mailing list > >> >> > pntaw@ietf.org > >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> pntaw mailing list > >> >> pntaw@ietf.org > >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >pntaw mailing list > >> >pntaw@ietf.org > >> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw > >> _______________________________________________ > >> pntaw mailing list > >> pntaw@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw
- [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Simon Perreault
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ted Hardie
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti