Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> Mon, 07 October 2013 20:08 UTC
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From: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 13:08:31 -0700
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References: <CAGTXFp92jSzQz05uHngzscz88n=fT_JPbEvQRxgeUUqPVRQUyQ@mail.gmail.com> <52244DD7.1020900@alvestrand.no> <BLU405-EAS183E36A927CA42270B6936D93300@phx.gbl> <522590EE.7070508@alvestrand.no> <C632A223-A55A-47F4-B083-9BDC447DA959@cisco.com> <52262657.3080208@alvestrand.no> <A2C315DB-1882-4BD1-A8C0-E8AF7DEA48F4@cisco.com> <00ca01cec387$f881cae0$e98560a0$@co.in> <BLU406-EAS274696C3D9DFE505F96B8E393130@phx.gbl>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Cc: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, "pntaw@ietf.org" <pntaw@ietf.org>, Parthasarathi R <partha@parthasarathi.co.in>
Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP
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On Oct 7, 2013, at 11:32 AM, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com> wrote: > As you point out, in most cases ICE-TCP will not avoid use of TURN, so we are only talking about a modest efficiency gain for ICE-TCP and RTP over TCP, but a substantial increase in complexity. > > Running SCTP over TCP is undesirable because the congestion control in SCTP and TCP will interact poorly with each other. And, even if a full SCTP stack is run over a full TCP stack, that will work but I agree won't work well. But working is better than not working in situations where UDP is blocked. To work well, we might look at SCTP Minion (draft-iyengar-minion-concept, which disables TCP's congestion control in lieu of SCTP's congestion control) is one answer to those conflicting congestion controls. -d > >> On Oct 7, 2013, at 11:07 AM, "Parthasarathi R" <partha@parthasarathi.co.in> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> RTP over TCP is unavoidable in case of RTCWeb media traffic has to traverse >> through UDP blocking firewalls. TCP candidates with ICE (RFC 6544) may fail >> due to the current OS implementation wherein TCP simultaneous Open will not >> work. >> >> I have concern w.r.t TURN server as it introduces one extra network element >> for RTCWeb session establishment. The current argument favoring for TURN >> server is that RTP over TCP is required only till TURN server whereas the >> media traffic between TURN server and the destination is UDP. In couple of >> WebRTC deployment in Service provider network and Enterprise network, TURN >> server will exist near to the destination and the WebRTC media traffic in >> the internet is "RTP over TCP". I guess that Victor scenario falls under the >> same category. In these deployment, RTP over TCP has advantage over TURN >> over TCP as the extra element shall be avoided. >> >> Also, SCTP over DTLS over UDP will not work in case of RTCWeb media traffic >> has to traverse through UDP blocking firewalls. So, there is a need of SCTP >> over DTLS over TCP or multipath TCP kind of transport to meet this >> requirement which needs separate discussion. >> >> Thanks >> Partha >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: pntaw-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pntaw-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >>> Of Dan Wing >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 1:47 AM >>> To: Harald Alvestrand >>> Cc: Bernard Aboba; pntaw@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP >>> >>> >>> On Sep 3, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 09/03/2013 07:25 PM, Dan Wing wrote: >>>>>> Multiple TCP connections seems like a suboptimal design, given the >>> existence of other solutions like Minion or SCTP. >>>>> Sure. But those technologies weren't on the table when Victor did >>> interactive audio/video over TCP, I'm sure. Much like they weren't on >>> the table when HTTP started doing multiple TCP connections back in the >>> early days of Netscape. >>>> >>>> Victor didn't provide a date, so I was thinking "recently" - SCTP is >>> 10 years old at this point. >>> >>> SCTP has been around a long time as a protocol but for a variety of >>> reasons has seen no deployment on the Internet to date, including no >>> availability in the mainstream OSs which is everyone's interest. SCTP- >>> over-UDP was only recently defined and its user-mode release was only >>> 12 or 18 months ago or so. >>> >>>> Minion is newer than that, of course. >>>>> >>>>>> If both sides have TURN over TCP (or TURN over HTTP) enabled, and >>> their respective TURN servers can talk UDP to each other, communication >>> will occur, I think. I don't think we need to add TCP candidates for >>> the TURN case in order to bypass firewalls. >>>>>> >>>>>> We might want to do so for the benefit of the pure peer-to-peer >>> case, but I'm not sure it's a case that's important enough to make 6062 >>> (TURN TCP allocations) or 6544 (ICE TCP allocations, no TURN server) >>> into MUSTs for RTCWEB. >>>>> I agree. Additionally, before anyone ventures too far down that >>> path it would be useful to understand how well the expected RTCWeb >>> endpoints could do peer-to-peer TCP connections. Reliable peer-to-peer >>> TCP needs TCP simultaneous open needs to work well on both hosts, per >>> the research by Saikat Guha and Paul Francis >>> http://conferences.sigcomm.org/imc/2005/papers/imc05efiles/guha/guha.pd >>> f. In that research, they found Windows XP SP1 doesn't do simultaneous >>> open well, but Windows XP with SP2 and SP3 and Linux worked okay. I >>> have not seen similar research for Android, OS X, or Windows 7 or >>> Windows 8. >>>> Indeed; that article seemed to indicate that the brand of NAT you >>> bought was a decisive factor - it would be interesting to see if the >>> state of the art has become more or less symmetric-TCP hostile in the >>> intervening 8 years. >>> >>> -d >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> pntaw mailing list >>> pntaw@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pntaw mailing list >> pntaw@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pntaw
- [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Michael Tuexen
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Simon Perreault
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Bernard Aboba
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ted Hardie
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Dan Wing
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Parthasarathi R
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Ravindran, Parthasarathi (NSN - IN/Bangalore)
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [pntaw] Real-time media over TCP Justin Uberti