RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position
David McTavish <dmctavish@sandvine.com> Fri, 26 September 2003 22:26 UTC
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From: David McTavish <dmctavish@sandvine.com>
To: 'Robert Moore' <remoore@us.ibm.com>, John Strassner <John.Strassner@intelliden.com>
Cc: "'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'" <bwijnen@lucent.com>, David McTavish <dmctavish@sandvine.com>, "'Joel M. Halpern'" <joel@stevecrocker.com>, John Strassner <John.Strassner@intelliden.com>, "'Pana, Mircea'" <mpana@metasolv.com>, "'policy@ietf.org'" <policy@ietf.org>, policy-admin@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:33:11 -0400
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Hi Bob, Unfortunately, in LDAP, attributes must be globally unique. So, if an attribute is defined as "foo" in one objectclass as a boolean, and as an integer in another class, this causes an incompatibility. In some cases (OpenLDAP), this prevents the server from even starting. It's not the most elegant implementation, but something you get used to when working on LDAP. Hope this is informational, d. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Moore [mailto:remoore@us.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 1:26 PM To: John Strassner Cc: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; 'David McTavish'; 'Joel M. Halpern'; John Strassner; 'Pana, Mircea'; 'policy@ietf.org'; policy-admin@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position >Furthermore, the argument that you are "reusing" an attribute foo in a new class bar is completely specious, because the new class >bar is different than the original class baz that defined foo. The differences are very fundamental - different hierarchies, different >attributes, and worse (e.g., the definition of priority). This isn't reuse, this is simply stealing an OID. John, I'll have to say that I'm missing the essence of your argument here. Formally (as you've acknowledged), LDAP falls into the same category as X.500 and CMIP: attributes are defined, and maintain their identity, independent of the classes in which they appear. (Digression for those who haven't worked in the DMTF: CIM works the opposite way -- an attribute's identity is tied to the class in which it is defined, so that it's possible to have two attributes with identical names defined in two different CIM classes. This is, of course, a potential source of confusion, so there were DMTF guidelines saying "Don't do this." But these provided an artificial overlay of global scope on attributes whose identity was inherently scoped by the classes that defined them.) I don't have specific experience with X.500 and LDAP, but I do know that in the CMIP case it was perfectly good practice (in fact, it was typical) to define attributes without regard to the classes that would include them. I'm don't see why X.500 and LDAP should be any different. But your use of the wording "... the original class baz that defined foo" suggests that you see some non-formal, but nevertheless significant sense in which LDAP attributes *are* defined relative to the (first?) class that contains them. Regards, Bob Bob Moore WebSphere Advanced Design and Technology WebSphere Platform System House IBM Software Group +1-919-254-4436 remoore@us.ibm.com John Strassner <John.Strassner@inte To: "'Pana, Mircea'" <mpana@metasolv.com>, "'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'" lliden.com> <bwijnen@lucent.com>, "'David McTavish'" <dmctavish@sandvine.com>, "'policy@ietf.org'" Sent by: <policy@ietf.org> policy-admin@ietf.or cc: John Strassner <John.Strassner@intelliden.com>, "'Joel M. Halpern'" g <joel@stevecrocker.com> Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position 09/23/2003 01:03 PM Again, you are trying to determine the validity of an information model based on the concerns of one specific data model. This is backwards. Furthermore, the argument that you are "reusing" an attribute foo in a new class bar is completely specious, because the new class bar is different than the original class baz that defined foo. The differences are very fundamental - different hierarchies, different attributes, and worse (e.g., the definition of priority). This isn't reuse, this is simply stealing an OID. So, how about defining a NEW set of classes and attributes? And if you prefixes the new classes and attributes, this would also get around the schema problem that I stated earlier. regards, John John C. Strassner Chief Strategy Officer Intelliden Inc. 90 South Cascade Avenue Colorado Springs, CO 80906 USA phone: +1.719.785.0648 fax: +1.719.785.0644 email: john.strassner@intelliden.com -----Original Message----- From: Pana, Mircea [mailto:mpana@metasolv.com] Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:21 AM To: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; 'David McTavish'; Pana, Mircea; 'policy@ietf.org' Cc: 'John Strassner'; 'Joel M. Halpern' Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Maybe there is no need for such drastic measures. Maybe it is only a matter of interpretation of the PCIMe recommendations. After all PCIMe is quite lenient wrt. that is and what is not used in submodels (see PCIMe section 5.10.). Some of the structural changes proposed by PCIMe make it difficult for PCELS to be interoperable with PCLS. These are as follows: 1. PCIMe defines a new abstract class, PolicySet, and makes it a superclass of the already defined PolicyRule and PolicyGroup 2. In PCIMe the PolicyRule.Priority property has been deprecated in favor of a new relative priority mechanism. 3. PolicyRepository is deprecated in favor of the new ReusablePolicyContainer. PCELS could be interoperable with PCLS if it was to interpret these PCIMe changes as follows: A. there is no need to have an explicit LDAP mapping of the abstract PolicySet. (see also B.) B. there is no need to have an explicit LDAP mapping of the modified PolicyGroup. Implementations can use (the equivalent of) a PolicyRule with no Actions or Conditions for PolicyGroup objects. C. implementations SHOULD (as opposed to MUST) use the relative priority mechanism instead of the absolute priority attribute of PolicyRule D. PolicyRepository SHOULD not be used directly but it is acceptable for instances of this class to occur through inheritance. So, the question is whether the statements A. through D. violate PCIMe or not. Opinions? Thanks, Mircea. -----Original Message----- From: Wijnen, Bert (Bert) [mailto:bwijnen@lucent.com] Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 6:14 AM To: 'David McTavish'; 'Pana, Mircea'; 'policy@ietf.org' Cc: 'John Strassner'; 'Joel M. Halpern' Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position W.r.t. > Is PCIMe considered so complete, that it is beyond modification, if such > modification could preserve its intent while also adhering to the desires > of maintaining consistency with PCIM and PCLS? PCIMe is at Proposed Standard. If, for example because of this effort to try and MAP it onto LDAP, we find that we did some things in PCIMe that we should not have done, then, with WG consensus, we can make incompatible changes to PCIMe and then recycle at Proposed Standard. That is part of the normal standars track process. That is, we get something to PS, then we start using/implementing (the "using" part is reusing PCIMe definitions in otehr CIM docs (like the other docs we did in Policy, and like the IPsec work, the "implementing" is sort of mapping onto for example LDAP I think)... and if we find major issues, then we fix and recycle at PS. If we do not find major issues, we may advance to DS. Hope this helps. Bert _______________________________________________ Policy mailing list Policy@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/policy
- [Policy] PCELS position Pana, Mircea
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Wijnen, Bert (Bert)
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position David McTavish
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Wijnen, Bert (Bert)
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Pana, Mircea
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Joel M. Halpern
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position David McTavish
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position John Strassner
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position John Strassner
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Robert Moore
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Robert Moore
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position David McTavish
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Pana, Mircea
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position John Strassner
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position John Strassner
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position John Schnizlein
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position John Strassner
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Pana, Mircea
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Pana, Mircea
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Pana, Mircea
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Pana, Mircea
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position Pana, Mircea
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position David McTavish
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position John Strassner
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position David McTavish
- RE: [Policy] RE: PCELS position David McTavish
- [Policy] RE: PCELS position David McTavish