Re: [precis] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] draft-faltstrom-unicode11, i18n "directorate", and related issues
"Marc Blanchet" <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca> Wed, 05 December 2018 22:08 UTC
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From: Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
Cc: Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>, ben@nostrum.com, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, i18n-discuss@iab.org, precis@ietf.org, ima@ietf.org, idna-update@ietf.org, resnick@episteme.net
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 17:08:43 -0500
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Subject: Re: [precis] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] draft-faltstrom-unicode11, i18n "directorate", and related issues
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On 5 Dec 2018, at 16:37, John C Klensin wrote: > But, with two qualifications, that is all that has ever been > proposed. Those are: > > (1) Because the root of the problems in this topic area is (or > appears to be) that the IETF community doesn't know nearly as > much about the topic as it would in a more ideal world and > because i18n work spans traditional and current Areas, I hope > the advice would be public rather than delivered in secret to > the AD and I would hope that the group would make an extra > effort to explain its reasoning in ways that the community (not > just the ADs) could understand and learn from. I would hope > that the group members would want to do those things and that > the relevant AD(s) would insist on them. (I don't think you > intended advice delivered in secret and kept that way, but your > suggestion could be read that way). I think that is consistent > with your interpretation of "educating..." but can be see how > that could be interpreted differently, just as my initial > suggestion was. it has been « by design » that Stringprep [RFC3454] and its replacement Precis[RFC8264] that there will be « requests » on how to do « the precis profile for my protocol » from the community. This happened for Stringprep quite a lot after the release of Stringprep. With Precis, we updated many of those to use Precis instead, but when the precis working group was closed, there was still many profiles-to-update left and obviously others will come. Therefore, for Precis at least, there will be some community—i18ndirectorate exchanges similar to yang doctors. Marc. > > (2) Not unlike our "Doctors" model (and consistent with the very > informal consultations about some LAMPS documents which I > believe were successful), I'd expect WGs and > document-developers, including those in other Areas, to want to > consult this group for advice and even help with text in > documents. I'd hope that could be handled informally, > directly, and efficiently, with a focus on getting quality work > done. I think it would be very unfortunate if the same sort of > procedure-lawyering that has gotten involved in this thread > would turn those efforts into requirements for a process that > would go something like: > > (OtherWG (or AD in other Area)): Dear ART ADs, would you > please ask the Directorate to review XYZ and help with text. > (ART AD to OtherWG): Sure > (ART AD to Directorate): Please see this request from > OtherWG, deal with it, and tell me. > (Directorate to ART AD (because they are expected to advise > that AD and no one else): ART AD, we think ABCDE > (ART AT to Other WG): Directorate says "we think ABCDE" > > Possibly followed by additional iterations of this waste of the > time of ADs and Directorate members, especially if specific text > were asked for and/or suggested. > > I think that would be seriously dumb and hope my example shows > that and why. But it would be consistent with efforts to draw > narrow lines around supposed principles such as "the only thing > a directorate is allowed to do is to advise ADs in that area). > > best, > john > > > --On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 19:21 -0500 Vint Cerf > <vint@google.com> wrote: > >> suggestion: >> >> set up the advisory group and allow it to offer advice to the >> appropriate AD. >> This same advisory group can reasonably share its findings >> more generally, thereby "educating...." the rest of the >> community. No power to block should either explicitly or >> implicitly be inferred by the creation of the advisory body. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > IDNA-UPDATE mailing list > IDNA-UPDATE@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idna-update
- [precis] draft-faltstrom-unicode11, i18n "directo… John C Klensin
- Re: [precis] [I18n-discuss] draft-faltstrom-unico… Ted Hardie
- Re: [precis] [I18n-discuss] draft-faltstrom-unico… Ben Campbell
- Re: [precis] [I18n-discuss] draft-faltstrom-unico… Ted Hardie
- Re: [precis] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] draft-f… Pete Resnick
- Re: [precis] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] draft-f… Ted Hardie
- Re: [precis] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] draft-f… Pete Resnick
- Re: [precis] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] draft-f… Ben Campbell
- Re: [precis] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] draft-f… Vint Cerf
- Re: [precis] [EAI] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] d… Ajay Data
- Re: [precis] [I18n-discuss] draft-faltstrom-unico… John C Klensin
- Re: [precis] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] draft-f… John C Klensin
- Re: [precis] [Idna-update] [I18n-discuss] draft-f… Marc Blanchet