Re: [privacydir] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-mayer-do-not-track-00.tx
Lucy Lynch <llynch@civil-tongue.net> Tue, 08 March 2011 14:59 UTC
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Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 07:00:46 -0800
From: Lucy Lynch <llynch@civil-tongue.net>
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Subject: Re: [privacydir] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-mayer-do-not-track-00.tx
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On Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 08/03/11 13:31, Chappelle, Kasey, VF-Group wrote: >> Good question - perhaps someone with more technical expertise than I >> have can help. > > That'd be good. > >> But there are lots of reasons why site owners would need >> to track their own visitors. Just off the top of my head, where would we >> put things like state management? Maintaining shopping carts from page >> to page or on subsequent visits, for example, requires you to track a >> visitor to your site across pages and sessions. > > Fair enough. However, I suspect that site owners, (like all of > us really) perhaps didn't pay so much attention to privacy in the > past, so it could well be that some of those 1st party tracking > practices are also privacy-invasive and perhaps not as necessary > as they're assumed to be. One of the key arguments I've heard advanced re: first party tracking of authenticated users has to do with fraud prevention. At the recent RSA in San Francisco several panels dealt with user profiling for security, see for example: https://cm.rsaconference.com/US11/catalog/modifySession.do?SESSION_ID=3210&back=true It isn't clear to me how much users know/understand about this kind of data collection and how they would feel about it if they did. It also isn't clear to me if these organizations are out-sourcing the analysis of customer data. This is shaping up as one of the possible counter arguements to do-not-track. - Lucy > However, I don't know, so that's why I asked. > > S. > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: 08 March 2011 13:20 >> To: Chappelle, Kasey, VF-Group >> Cc: Ted Hardie; Sean Turner; privacydir@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [privacydir] Fwd: I-D >> ACTION:draft-mayer-do-not-track-00.txt >> >> >> >> On 08/03/11 13:14, Chappelle, Kasey, VF-Group wrote: >>> Think of all the basic web functions you'd be breaking if first-party >> tracking weren't allowed. >> >> Just wondering. Do we have a good list of those somewhere? >> >> S. >> >>> Also consider the very different privacy implications between a party >> you've actively engaged with knowing what you're doing while you >> interact with them, vs. the third party you have no relationship with. >> There's a very real privacy threat here we need to address, but lumping >> all tracking together may not be the way to do it. Emerging regulatory >> structures around this, even in the most restrictive regimes, have >> acknowledged the difference. >>> >>> Also, anonymous data linked to an individual should and would still be >> covered. But what about data collection that occurs without any unique >> identifiers at all. The Narayanan papers talk about deanonymization of >> individually identifiable data sets. Let's make sure we understand the >> full privacy implications in either case before we jump to conclusions - >> is frequency-capping actually a privacy-impacting process? I'd say no. >>> >>> One of the problems of data protection law is that it treats all data >> collection similarly, without acknowledging degrees of harm. Let's not >> fall into the same trap. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: privacydir-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:privacydir-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf Of Ted Hardie >>> Sent: 08 March 2011 04:15 >>> To: Sean Turner >>> Cc: privacydir@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [privacydir] Fwd: I-D >> ACTION:draft-mayer-do-not-track-00.txt >>> >>> I've read this draft, and I think it warrants discussion. >>> >>> The most basic question for me is whether a single bit of information >>> about user preferences is sufficient in this case. Having additional >>> bits which describe user preferences around tracking by first parties >>> seems to me necessary. >>> >>> In particular, the document appears to assume that 1st party tracking >>> and 3rd party tracking done on behalf of a 1st party (see Exception 2) >>> are permitted even if DNT is set to "do not track". That is, DNT is >>> really "No third party tracking" and it expects that there is a simple >>> mechanism by which third parties are distinguished from first parties. >>> I personally have my doubts. If I get content used to construct a >>> web page from source X and source Y are both X and Y first parties? >>> The single-pixel image may look like an obvious 3rd party, but the >>> protocol mechanics by which I distinguish that from and embedded RSS >>> feed are not clearly described in the document. I can infer that I >>> use the public suffix list and the FQDN of either the link or the >>> browser bar, but this really needs to be spelled out. >>> >>> The description of interaction with proxies needs to explain whether >>> the header has any impact on whether the response should be cached >>> and, if so, whether returns from the cache should be limited to >>> requests with the same DNT state. >>> >>> I also find the exception for data which is "not linkable to a >>> specific user or user agent" somewhat hard to work through. As the >>> two Narayanan papers cited show, anonymized data has been shown to >>> allow later identification. How can we be certain that advertising >>> frequency capping or sequencing data has no similar issue without >>> specifying their format? Even if this is not intended as a loophole, >>> it seems likely to be exploited as one. >>> >>> I have the haunting feeling that starting from this position is >>> inherently weak. If we are truly interested in user control here, the >>> opposite tack, a "Know This" header which explicitly states the >>> information the user is willing to reveal seems to give far more real >>> control. This seems to ask the browser to set a "Don't be evil" bit >>> on its requests, but to leave the real control over what that means so >>> underspecified that reasonable people could conclude wildly different >>> things. >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Ted Hardie >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com> wrote: >>>> FYI >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-mayer-do-not-track-00.txt >>>> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:45:01 -0800 >>>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>>> >>>> A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>>> directories. >>>> >>>> >>>> Title : Do Not Track: A Universal Third-Party Web Tracking >> Opt >>>> Out >>>> Author(s) : J. Mayer, et al >>>> Filename : draft-mayer-do-not-track-00.txt >>>> Pages : 6 >>>> Date : 2011-03-07 >>>> >>>> This document defines the syntax and semantics of Do Not Track, an >>>> HTTP header-based mechanism that enables users to express >> preferences >>>> about third-party web tracking. It also provides a standard for >> how >>>> web services should comply with such user preferences. >>>> >>>> >>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mayer-do-not-track-00.txt >>>> >>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>> >>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >>>> Internet-Draft. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> privacydir mailing list >>>> privacydir@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/privacydir >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> privacydir mailing list >>> privacydir@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/privacydir >>> _______________________________________________ >>> privacydir mailing list >>> privacydir@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/privacydir >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > privacydir mailing list > privacydir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/privacydir >
- Re: [privacydir] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-mayer-do-n… Lucy Lynch
- Re: [privacydir] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-mayer-do-n… Chappelle, Kasey, VF-Group