Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-v2-00.txt

Martin Thomson <> Tue, 27 April 2021 22:32 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704D63A2356 for <>; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.12
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.b=UdF9qp3D; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.b=s1q6jFgQ
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2orPAa7NyaA for <>; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:32:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AFE93A2354 for <>; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:32:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal []) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F19BD43 for <>; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 18:31:59 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap10 ([]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 27 Apr 2021 18:31:59 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=vacsWgHER6sVAdeCCbroFgooQi8fLeb vu6zRGk8UnNQ=; b=UdF9qp3DAfGDBFEfiU3LL/XpaEoXm9N+YR2liXpouKv3hW6 SPPsZjqmMgm0CISD/K4xe9aBQUKGNMriKz8M4Hlfn4Ld9aZg5L+NN3VOdxkVKyfP 6hCOnfYMcbyifrgHSRgnhadcR2690dX/DpJKktG+gtH95MadQtYLxzHqSSZaK33Q KbhLiQHhNSLFmVvB4vL4jPS0O5K45ntw7Q6rF/4nW+YxL9fZJXoBcY9DlhUuU01B KQVX1ZkSnXAbno86rHWu5dcOyX0drWNn8W9u0xIUiEu5XXlm+UXvThqFMHMfDDK5 NW+dkNAbISyTqHC9+ML3HA5vuG3UWARGlXdRQVg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=vacsWg HER6sVAdeCCbroFgooQi8fLebvu6zRGk8UnNQ=; b=s1q6jFgQCE56VG99/4QsOZ 7Lj51RdzSO+/QnIoTKdcF3B5HK+XrYDx0SxLPE82ep0go8ZOgbyHsej8STZVIWdp vw6QiIRlkrKT4vc6VvmKVZcfrGlEK/5u5FkcrqTmJSswunNlfoDfdWjy02ACcwjg 4S72s5jk6lxfh8l2Q8lP5PuTKA8y2AH7NZ2zM+iVsrAOpKi+sc4+wl1EKWVSqyuI hsrhvL0iikRVjL94ScRJGNzNurt6LdW/WxiVrxNolHjqoTNqdL/j/+dTPEGldhci r9syrB7lTrR4CCcJyjVEGG8321Xfk5UooRfvpZg90mwtzLU1/WZlzoDGIkvpqUSg ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:3pCIYBWJZP9z-5llMQ8G38aMUQVsIEREyaa1JWCI2ZHA8uuq1ysBaw> <xme:3pCIYBlYSe6THVSSsK7sxa6AopyNn6hhK2qox9RSEOdXvf9ONzswQlcHq2FTp_QFA B-nEiqQBuS4eA-5LrY>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddvuddgtdelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedtvedtvdegveekieetke dugfffudeigedvhffffefgvdelffekteevgfefuedthfenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhf rdhorhhgpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrh grmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:3pCIYNZQzTZlg2i0h3FYF2VUN6dDnYfW8iy3MgAaDApf3xlg-pmSQg> <xmx:3pCIYEUbNyq84YT4MR3dm5Ew88oOxDmeNIkxIt60zEgRdueaUGuSkQ> <xmx:3pCIYLle1rE6sCNCVimK2vvcxbjF-v3X65a9r9OjuTL528QCPTgdOg> <xmx:35CIYHwhc8R8ofD3qNH3OxhsVWw3WWu2inuygild5ASx4ZcEslSixA>
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9DEA64E00B3; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 18:31:58 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-403-gbc3c488b23-fm-20210419.005-gbc3c488b
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <>
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <> <>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 08:31:32 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" <>
Subject: Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-v2-00.txt
Content-Type: text/plain
Archived-At: <>
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 22:32:06 -0000

Well you beat me to it.

Another nit to add to the pile: it might pay not to use 2 as the version number here.  Pick a random number, like 0xfaceb00c or something.

As for the labels we use for HKDF, tweaking those might be a good idea.  We didn't do that for draft versions, but a completely new version would benefit from better separation.

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021, at 03:52, Martin Duke wrote:
> Hello QUIC,
> I believe it was MT that threatened to do this a long time ago, but to 
> work through compatible version negotiation I wrote up a trivial QUICv2 
> (below) that just changes the initial salts. This caused me to figure 
> out a couple of things about VN that may have been obvious to others 
> but not to me.
> TL;DR we made the right decision to keep both in the draft.
> 1. One very possible world is one where firewalls ossify on expecting 
> v1 in the first packet, but don't care about subsequent packets. 
> Compatible VN is well-designed for this world, as Client Initials (and 
> 0RTT, sadly) can be v1 essentially forever and subsequent packets can 
> be whatever we want.
> 2. If all versions are compatible, choice of VN method is essentially 
> up to the client, but not quite deterministically: it can pick either a 
> likely supported version or an unlikely one. If unlikely, the server 
> will either accept it or send a VN. If likely, the server MUST use 
> compatible VN to change the version, since it can't send a VN packet 
> that contains the initial version unless it doesn't have full support 
> for it.
> Anyway, this v2 draft is available for your consideration if people 
> want to quickly iterate a new version, and/or we need a vehicle for 
> fixes to v1.
> Thanks
> Martin
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <>
> Date: Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 10:22 AM
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-v2-00.txt
> To: Martin Duke <>
> A new version of I-D, draft-duke-quic-v2-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Martin Duke and posted to the
> IETF repository.
> Name:           draft-duke-quic-v2
> Revision:       00
> Title:          QUIC Version 2
> Document date:  2021-04-22
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          5
> URL:  
> Status:
> Html: 
> Htmlized:
> Abstract:
>    This document specifies QUIC version 2, which is identical to QUIC
>    version 1 except for some trivial details.  Its purpose is to combat
>    various ossification vectors and exercise the version negotiation
>    framework.  Over time, it may also serve as a vehicle for needed
>    protocol design changes.
>    Discussion of this work is encouraged to happen on the QUIC IETF
>    mailing list or on the GitHub repository which contains
>    the draft:
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> The IETF Secretariat