Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-quic-tls-33: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> Wed, 06 January 2021 03:18 UTC

Return-Path: <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E59F3A0925; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 19:18:22 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.847
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id amNZ_H_SRLpb; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 19:18:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ej1-x633.google.com (mail-ej1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96AD13A0934; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 19:18:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-ej1-x633.google.com with SMTP id n26so3269359eju.6; Tue, 05 Jan 2021 19:18:15 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vdx4iQ4bcTCWRM6H3HONlnMK5ZlO6LtTxrEwWwof22k=; b=ROL18kkjnHr4MayDfaF51DSNCy5o0t8vxHtDzXWa+9nvGata71L/8cYB6MIFMtj3Tf 1gBacNx4x2Z0g1m5sswJPJaew46x9dt2dC4ozk9fUJkokjaqst6TBfDUjlZA7q4X8fjY uPeCxMoROQIVWXmrZXwa6QzuFqfw2+kYiyO//ObpLsXzQvhlDZMUY6LpJySLfTwh8KHX GM1f578twGvnJ53N6jo8CHcOeEApodQ9sNPsxXiMi63hUORiTAqeyHvQn+Y3hu4AvtQm 2f0IRfR7GqrStiGizViR+VNe0NKAzgPs4aTrQeZJB3JmANEXCskLFEXp14Rs2nbZtKg9 rCDg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vdx4iQ4bcTCWRM6H3HONlnMK5ZlO6LtTxrEwWwof22k=; b=sat03aLMxuxqUJPF69TlYahbeVq9w6QiwDVdtKQYWDBMMt3DQKDW7Iz4AmQE/T1S9C Bt7atkmjMcE1cbPVEj5ycThoLmKsEP8IhhCqJFvjgd3fjEBOYmkeeLnbeXW+xS6tXqyq hLha6Ua/NAJOdGwMrpzhfZf8qPOayzV78WxUOY6RyEGGZOuaqpyXmXaTnb2TEGxfjL53 Fm4qfpno0oi3cCnTxDrrLQxifEaiMf7nJTz7sbAOsF3f0N+yNdhK3hNsn6UmRQNPwY6z stFJTvLqZB8aq4G4IOIb3hZ4bPBZTGLUXuJW3ugux5SQnFHV/FrFyDelPkq7yctlwLLg gWBw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+wsuCaAjVDe9GbEa9K2csYRF2TcAnZFV+1cqEcxXoBalhH7dd hJjt7mVX09DM1UdJlrWPEUo33+qmzMI4y/vXbnU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzt+50kYA4SMKEgWan4+i2IAxJK345BPzp2B6z8cUP9hiF8sSNurkGmAZfnAy8N3sMOyPoo4sDD3OCbEg9XPws=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:2755:: with SMTP id a21mr1585990ejd.374.1609903093902; Tue, 05 Jan 2021 19:18:13 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <160982240167.15696.6063503687030193256@ietfa.amsl.com>
In-Reply-To: <160982240167.15696.6063503687030193256@ietfa.amsl.com>
From: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 03:18:02 +0000
Message-ID: <CALGR9oYpiV7Gfqf8Du8svzXh5CnfQE-8M2rc8CDFxoZTDVksNw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-quic-tls-33: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-quic-tls@ietf.org, WG Chairs <quic-chairs@ietf.org>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000008f15405b832c633"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/D4Bc7u5BBAbiZMSOkirIS5uM5is>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2021 03:18:22 -0000

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the review. I've created issues for your discuss and comment
items in the QUIC WG GitHub repository. (Fore-apology accepted, thanks).
See in-line response for a link to each one.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 4:53 AM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-quic-tls-33: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-tls/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> (1) Rather a "discuss-discuss", but we seem to be requiring some changes
> to TLS 1.3 that are arguably out of charter.  In particular, in Section
> 8.3 we see that clients are forbidden from sending EndOfEarlyData and it
> (accordingly) does not appear in the handshake transcript.  The
> reasoning for this is fairly sound; we explicitly index our application
> data streams and any truncation will be filled in as a normal part of
> the recovery process, so the attack that EndOfEarlyData exists to
> prevent instrinsically cannot happen.  However, the only reason we'd be
> required to send it in the first place is if the server sends the
> "early_data" extension in EncryptedExtensions ... and we already have a
> bit of unpleasantness relating to the "early_data" extension, in that we
> have to use a sentinel value for max_early_data_size in NewSessionTicket
> to indicate that the ticket is good for 0-RTT, with the actual maximum
> amount of data allowed indicated elsewhere.  TLS extensions are cheap,
> so a new "quic_early_data" flag extension valid in CH, EE, and NST would
> keep us from conflating TLS and QUIC 0-RTT semantics, thus solving both
> problems at the same time.  On the other hand, that would be requiring
> implementations to churn just for process cleanliness, so we might also
> consider other alternatives, such as finessing the language and/or
> document metadata for how this specification uses TLS 1.3.
> (There are a couple other places in the COMMENT where we might suffer
> from scope creep regarding TLS behavior as well, but I did not mark them
> as DISCUSS since they are not changing existing specified behavior.)
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4475


> (2) Let's check whether the quic_transport_parameters TLS extension
> should be marked as Recommended or not.  The document currently says
> "Yes", and the live registry say 'N'.  That said, the earliest mention I
> can see of using 'N' in the archives is in
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls-reg-review/z8MOW0bYNP2KIj4XcCXBe2IOKfI/
> which seems to just be stating what IANA did when they changed what
> codepoint (since there were issues with the initially selected value
> '46') and not a reasoned decision.
>
> The perhaps haphazard nature of that change notwithstanding, in my
> opinion the 'N' actually is correct, since the extension is not
> appropriate for general use *of TLS* (indeed, we require that TLS
> implementations that support this document abort the connection if it is
> used for non-QUIC connections).
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4476


>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've noted some potential editorial improvements in a local copy of the
> markdown and have made a pull request with them, at
> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4473
>
> The length of the remaining comments notwithstanding, this document is
> generally quite well done and a sizeable chunk of my comments are just
> relating to subtleties of TLS and our interaction with it; I plan to
> change my position to Yes once the Discuss points have been
> appropriately discussed.  My apologies in advance to the chairs who will
> have to open github issues for all
> of these!
>
> We may want to make a pass through the document to normalize the way in
> which we discuss 0-RTT.  For example, Section 4.5 mentions that
> resumption "can be used without also enabling 0-RTT" as if 0-RTT should
> be off by default, but much of the previous discussion involving 0-RTT
> treats it as an expected and normal part of the protocl.  (For what
> little it's worth, my own personal preference leans towards how RFC 8446
> treats 0-RTT data, as an optional and potentially dangerous thing that
> should be off by default and only enabled after careful consideration,
> though in some ways it actually seems significantly safer in QUIC than
> TLS.  Regardless, I do not see any value in re-litigating the question
> at this point; I'm just hoping that the document can be consistent about
> it.)
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4477


> Section 2.1
>
>    The 0-RTT handshake is only possible if the client and server have
>    previously communicated.  In the 1-RTT handshake, the client is
>
> Pedantically, RFC 8446 does allow the exchange of 0-RTT data for
> externally provisioned PSKs (non-resumption), provided that the
> necessary parameters are provisioned along with the PSK.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4478


> Section 3
>
> Figure 3 shows "TLS Alerts" as being carried over QUIC Transport, but
> per §4.8 TLS alerts are translated into QUIC connection errors and are
> not sent natively.
>
>    *  The TLS component provides a series of updates to the QUIC
>       component, including (a) new packet protection keys to install (b)
>       state changes such as handshake completion, the server
>       certificate, etc.
>
> I think that if we're going to talk about passing the server certificate
> between TLS and QUIC components, we should be very clear about where/how
> certificate validation occurs.  For example, it would be pretty
> disasterous if TLS passed the certificate to QUIC expecting that QUIC
> would do any validation of the peer identity, but QUIC assumed that TLS
> would only provide a validated certificate.  Perhaps in §4.1 when we
> mention the potential for "additional functions [...] to configure TLS",
> we might mention "including certificate validation", if appropriate?
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4479


> Section 4
>
>    QUIC carries TLS handshake data in CRYPTO frames, each of which
>    consists of a contiguous block of handshake data identified by an
>    offset and length.  Those frames are packaged into QUIC packets and
>    encrypted under the current TLS encryption level.  [...]
>
> I'm not sure I understand the benefit of specifically calling this a
> "TLS encryption level".  While it's true that the keys are being
> provided by TLS, the cryptographic mechanisms being used are applied by
> QUIC.  Furthermore, there's a 1:1 correspondence between the QUIC and
> TLS encryption levels, so perhaps it is acceptable to not have a
> qualifier at all (for just "under the current encryption level").
>
>    One important difference between TLS records (used with TCP) and QUIC
>    CRYPTO frames is that in QUIC multiple frames may appear in the same
>    QUIC packet as long as they are associated with the same packet
>    number space.  [...]
>
> I'm a bit confused as to what analogy is being made here.  It seems to
> be equating TLS records and QUIC frames, but of course multiple DTLS
> records can appear in a single UDP datagram, so the difference between
> QUIC and DTLS does not seem quite so large as depicted here.  Of course,
> if the analogy is supposed to be between TLS handshake messages and QUIC
> frames, or TLS records and QUIC packets, then things would be different,
> but I'm not sure what this is intended to say.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4480


> Section 4.1.3
>
>    Once the handshake is complete, TLS becomes passive.  TLS can still
>    receive data from its peer and respond in kind, but it will not need
>    to send more data unless specifically requested - either by an
>    application or QUIC.  [...]
>
> (pedantic note) In some sense this is a forward-looking statement *about
> TLS*, which is not something the QUIC WG is chartered to work on.  That
> said, because of how TLS feature negotiation is done, any new kind of
> data spontaneously emitted by TLS would need to be negotiated with an
> extension in the handshake, but I don't think we are attempting to
> specifically lock down the set of extensions in the TLS handshake for
> QUIC connections, so in theory a change to the TLS implementation
> defaults could result in QUIC connections that have TLS spontaneously
> emit data.  On the gripping hand, I don't really see much need for a
> text change here.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4481


> Section 4.1.5
>
> Why does the server call Get Handshake twice between receiving the
> client Initial and the client's second Hansdhake flight?  IIUC the
> interface says that additional handshake data will only be supplied from
> TLS in response to input handshake data (and thus, not in response to
> TLS generating new keys, which is what the figure suggests to be a
> proximal trigger for the second Get Handshake).  We should probably be
> careful that the interfaces we document are capable of describing the
> case where TLS provides both new keys and handshake bytes, and the
> handshake bytes are split across encryption levels (as is the case for
> the server's first flight), which may be the motivation for the two Get
> Handshake calls depicted here.
>
> Similarly, it's my understanding that the client should still call Get
> Handshake after receiving the Initial (but would receive only keys and
> not output handshake data at that point).  I'm not sure whether the
> figure should indicate that (ineffectual) Get Handshake call.
>
> Should the figure indicate the Handshake Confirmed operation in addition
> to Handshake Complete?
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4482


> Section 4.3
>
>    The TLS implementation does not need to ensure that the ClientHello
>    is sufficiently large.  QUIC PADDING frames are added to increase the
>    size of the packet as necessary.
>
> Should we reference Section 8.1 of [QUIC-TRANSPORT] for "sufficiently
> large"?
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4483


> Section 4.4
>
>    A client MUST authenticate the identity of the server.  This
>    typically involves verification that the identity of the server is
>    included in a certificate and that the certificate is issued by a
>    trusted entity (see for example [RFC2818]).
>
> I assume that, per normal TLS semantics, this requirement can be met by
> PSK authentication as well as certificate authentication.  PSK
> authentication has often been an aspect of TLS that has not received
> substantial attention, so we may want to preemtively pay some attention
> to the PSK case.
>
>    A server MUST NOT use post-handshake client authentication (as
>    defined in Section 4.6.2 of [TLS13]), because the multiplexing
>
> Do we want to say anything about not sending the "post_handshake_auth"
> extension (defined in the numerologically similar section 4.2.6 of RFC
> 8446)?  Strictly speaking we don't need to say anything, but efficient
> implementations would satisfy the existing QUIC requirement by not
> sending the extension and relying on the TLS stack to reject
> post-handshake authentication since the extension had not been offered.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4484


> Section 4.8
>
>    The alert level of all TLS alerts is "fatal"; a TLS stack MUST NOT
>    generate alerts at the "warning" level.
>
> This seems to be making a normative restriction on the operation of TLS,
> which is not in the QUIC WG charter.  Perhaps we should instead
> constrain the QUIC implementation to not accept such alerts (and what to
> do if they are received) and note that the only closure alerts in RFC
> 8446 are "close_notify" and "user_cancelled", which are replaced by
> equivalent QUIC-level functionality.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4485


> Section 4.9
>
>    An endpoint cannot discard keys for a given encryption level unless
>    it has both received and acknowledged all CRYPTO frames for that
>    encryption level and when all CRYPTO frames for that encryption level
>    have been acknowledged by its peer.  However, this does not guarantee
>
> (nit/editorial) I believe that the "both" is meant to apply to "received
> and acknowledged" and "when all CRYTO frames [...] have been
> acknowledged", but the current formulation does not have parallel
> structure between those clauses, so it ends up reading more naturally as
> saying that the "both" refers to "received" and "acknowledged".  I don't
> have a simple suggestion for fixing it, though (it might require a
> significant restructuring to fix), so I'm leaving it here in my comments
> rather than incorporating a fix into my editorial PR.  (Any drastic
> rewording might consider the rest of the paragraph as well, as it seems
> to leave the reader without a clear sense for when it definitely is safe
> to discard old keys.)
>
>    Though an endpoint might retain older keys, new data MUST be sent at
>    the highest currently-available encryption level.  Only ACK frames
>    and retransmissions of data in CRYPTO frames are sent at a previous
>    encryption level.  These packets MAY also include PADDING frames.
>
> Is there anything useful to say about whether it is advisable to make
> retransmission packets have the same size as the original transmission?
> ("No" is a fine answer.)
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4486


> Section 4.9.3
>
>    0-RTT keys to allow decrypting reordered packets without requiring
>    their contents to be retransmitted with 1-RTT keys.  After receiving
>    a 1-RTT packet, servers MUST discard 0-RTT keys within a short time;
>    the RECOMMENDED time period is three times the Probe Timeout (PTO,
>    see [QUIC-RECOVERY]).  A server MAY discard 0-RTT keys earlier if it
>
> Just to check my understanding, the two endpoints will not necessarily
> agree on the value of PTO at any given point in time, so this is a
> heuristic and not some form of synchronized behavior where the server
> replicates the client's loss-detection algorithm precisely?
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4487


> Section 5
>
>    *  Retry packets use AEAD_AES_128_GCM to provide protection against
>       accidental modification or insertion by off-path adversaries; see
>       Section 5.8.
>
> [As noted by others, please check the terminology here against
> [QUIC-TRANSPORT]; I think the latter uses "attacker" rather than
> "adversary" and I haven't internalized the new on-path, limited on-path,
> off-path terminology yet, either.]
>
>    *  All other packets have strong cryptographic protections for
>       confidentiality and integrity, using keys and algorithms
>       negotiated by TLS.
>
> (side note) the handshake keys are "strong" in a certain sense
> (unpredictability) but weak in the sense that they are not authenticated
> until the handshake has completed.  It may not be necessary to attempt
> to express this subtlety in this point in the document, though.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4488


> Section 5.1
>
> I think we should say something about the "Context" argument to
> HKDF-Expand-Label here.  (I assume it is going to be the same
> Transcript-Hash as used for TLS 1.3, but it is not currently specified,
> as far as I can see.  I do note that we have some ongoing discussion in
> the context of draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13 that *exporters*, at least,
> might better have been specified to use the full transcript including
> client Finished, but I am not convinced that we should consider such
> drastic changes for our usage, especially since it would neuter 0.5-RTT
> unless we add a lot more complexity.)  We may also want to say that
> the Length input is determined by the ciphersuite's requirements.
> Alternately we could specify in terms of Derive-Secret(), but there's
> not really a clear incentive to do so.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4489


> Section 5.2
>
>    This secret is determined by using HKDF-Extract (see Section 2.2 of
>    [HKDF]) with a salt of 0x38762cf7f55934b34d179ae6a4c80cadccbb7f0a and
>    a IKM of the Destination Connection ID field.  This produces an
>    intermediate pseudorandom key (PRK) that is used to derive two
>    separate secrets for sending and receiving.
>
> [I was going to say something about all-zeros providing the same level
> of cryptographic protection, but then I saw the discussion at
> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4325 and the note further
> down that new versions of QUIC should pick different salt values.]
> I assume this holds for the final RFC version as compared to the I-Ds,
> and https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3711 suggests that a new
> (random) salt should be chosen for the final RFC version, but I didn't
> see an open issue in github for it, so I'll mention it here just in case
> that helps.  (The retry key+nonce in §5.8 seem to be in a similar boat,
> and the examples in the appendix would need to be adjusted as well, of
> course.)
>
>    initial_secret = HKDF-Extract(initial_salt,
>                                  client_dst_connection_id)
>
>    client_initial_secret = HKDF-Expand-Label(initial_secret,
>                                              "client in", "",
>                                              Hash.length)
>    server_initial_secret = HKDF-Expand-Label(initial_secret,
>                                              "server in", "",
>                                              Hash.length)
>
> (editorial) I wonder a bit if the rhetoric would be more clear if we did
> not call the "initial_secret" a "secret", since it is just an
> intermediate value used for constructing secrets and not used directly
> to construct keys, itself.  (The idea would be to hew to the TLS 1.3
> terminology where specific named Secrets are used to drive
> Derive-Secret() calls but other cryptographic inputs are not named with
> the word "secret".)
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4490


> Section 5.3
>
>    QUIC can use any of the cipher suites defined in [TLS13] with the
>    exception of TLS_AES_128_CCM_8_SHA256.  [...]
>
> It's a little interesting to use the RFC as the authority on
> ciphersuites rather than the registry, but I guess the header protection
> scheme requirement makes it more reasonable.  Also, for what it's worth,
> there are MAC-only TLS 1.3 ciphersuites in the IANA registry.  I don't
> know whether you want to say anything (to forbid?) such things from
> being used as QUIC AEADs.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4491


> Section 5.4.x
>
> Are we really sure that we want to use normative pseudocode?  I thought
> (but cannot currently substantiate) that we typically preferred
> normative prose and example pseudocode, since pseudocode somewhat
> intrinsically has not-fully-specified semantics.  As some specific (but
> not comprehensive!) examples, which bytes of the mask are used when the
> packet number is encoded in fewer than 4 bytes, and the key/plaintext
> inputs to AES-ECB seem to only be specified in the pseudocode.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4492


> Section 5.5
>
>    Once an endpoint successfully receives a packet with a given packet
>    number, it MUST discard all packets in the same packet number space
>    with higher packet numbers if they cannot be successfully unprotected
>    with either the same key, or - if there is a key update - the next
>    packet protection key (see Section 6).  [...]
>
> Pedantically, "the next packet protection key" seems to imply
> specifically the one next key, not "any subsequent key".  A strict
> reading of this text would thust require discarding all packets received
> after a second key update, because this clause applies to the very first
> packet successfully received, and the third key used is neither the
> "same" or "next" key, from that reference point.  (I note that in §6.4
> we merely talk about "either the same or newer packet protection keys".)
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4493


> Section 5.6
>
>    Of the frames defined in [QUIC-TRANSPORT], the STREAM, RESET_STREAM,
>    and CONNECTION_CLOSE frames are potentially unsafe for use with 0-RTT
>    as they carry application data.  [...]
>
> I guess STOP_SENDING is not listed as unsafe because it would be an
> error to send it in 0-RTT anyway?
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4494


> Section 5.7
>
>    The requirement for the server to wait for the client Finished
>    message creates a dependency on that message being delivered.  A
>    client can avoid the potential for head-of-line blocking that this
>    implies by sending its 1-RTT packets coalesced with a Handshake
>    packet containing a copy of the CRYPTO frame that carries the
>    Finished message, until one of the Handshake packets is acknowledged.
>    This enables immediate server processing for those packets.
>
> This mostly only helps for unauthenticated clients, since for
> authenticated clients the Finishsed isn't much good without the
> Certificate+CertificateVerify, which are probably too big to include
> with every packet.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4495


> Section 5.8
>
>    The secret key and the nonce are values derived by calling HKDF-
>    Expand-Label using
>    0xd9c9943e6101fd200021506bcc02814c73030f25c79d71ce876eca876e6fca8e as
>    the secret, with labels being "quic key" and "quic iv" (Section 5.1).
>
> HKDF-Expand-Label also takes a "Context" argument; what value is used
> for that?  (Presumably the ouput Length argument is set to the lengths
> of the stated fields.)
>
>    Retry Pseudo-Packet {
>      ODCID Length (8),
>      Original Destination Connection ID (0..160),
>      Header Form (1) = 1,
>      Fixed Bit (1) = 1,
>      Long Packet Type (2) = 3,
>      Type-Specific Bits (4),
>      Version (32),
>      DCID Len (8),
>      Destination Connection ID (0..160),
>      SCID Len (8),
>      Source Connection ID (0..160),
>      Retry Token (..),
>    }
>
> Should we say that the four bits before Version are Unused (not
> Type-Specific Bits), as they are in the Retry packet itself?  (I assume
> that the the arbitrary value in those bits does need to be preserved,
> though.)
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4497


> Section 6
>
> I suggest noting that, in contrast to TLS, key updates are synchronized
> between traffic directions; read keys are updated at the same time that
> write keys are (and vice versa).
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4498


> Section 6.3
>
>    The process of creating new packet protection keys for receiving
>    packets could reveal that a key update has occurred.  An endpoint MAY
>    perform this process as part of packet processing, but this creates a
>    timing signal that can be used by an attacker to learn when key
>    updates happen and thus the value of the Key Phase bit in certain
>    packets.  Endpoints MAY instead defer the creation of the next set of
>    receive packet protection keys until some time after a key update
>    completes, up to three times the PTO; see Section 6.5.
>
> (editorial) I think this paragraph (and following) might need a rewrite,
> since the phrase "new keys" in the context of a key update could be
> ambiguous.  In particular, if we are considering the process of a key
> update from generation M to generation N, this text only seems to make
> sense if the "new keys" whose generation is being discussed is
> generation O (i.e., ones that are not being used to send traffic yet by
> anybody), but it is easy to misread "new keys" as being "the ones
> installed/activated for use as part of the key update process".  Perhaps
> the guidance that endpoints are to maintain both current and next keys
> in normal operation should be moved earlier, with the context that you
> need to be prepared to handle any valid incoming packets (which includes
> those using both current and next keys, since the peer can initiate a
> key update) without a timing channel for when key generation is
> occurring.  (There may be some similar text in §9.5 that would be
> updated in accordance with any changes made here.)
>
>    Once generated, the next set of packet protection keys SHOULD be
>    retained, even if the packet that was received was subsequently
>    discarded.  [...]
>
> What is "the packet" that was received?
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4499


> Section 6.5
>
>    An endpoint MAY allow a period of approximately the Probe Timeout
>    (PTO; see [QUIC-RECOVERY]) after receiving a packet that uses the new
>    key generation before it creates the next set of packet protection
>    keys.  [...]
>
> (editorial) Similarly to the previous section, I think the action being
> described here might be more properly described as "promoting the 'next'
> keys to be the 'current' keys (and thus starting the precomputation for
> the subsequent 'next' keys)".  Surly this is not advocating waiting a
> PTO before generating the keys you need to process a packet you just
> received ... right?
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4499


> Section 6.6
>
>    The usage limits defined in TLS 1.3 exist for protection against
>    attacks on confidentiality and apply to successful applications of
>    AEAD protection.  The integrity protections in authenticated
>    encryption also depend on limiting the number of attempts to forge
>    packets.  TLS achieves this by closing connections after any record
>    fails an authentication check.  In comparison, QUIC ignores any
>    packet that cannot be authenticated, allowing multiple forgery
>    attempts.
>
> QUIC seems very analogous to DTLS in this regard, and DTLS 1.3 also has
> similar text about AEAD limits for integrity.  Perhaps a brief mention
> that they are essentially the same is useful?
>
>    For AEAD_AES_128_GCM and AEAD_AES_256_GCM, the confidentiality limit
>    is 2^23 encrypted packets; see Appendix B.1.  For
>    AEAD_CHACHA20_POLY1305, the confidentiality limit is greater than the
>    number of possible packets (2^62) and so can be disregarded.  For
>    AEAD_AES_128_CCM, the confidentiality limit is 2^21.5 encrypted
>    packets; see Appendix B.2.  Applying a limit reduces the probability
>    that an attacker can distinguish the AEAD in use from a random
>    permutation; see [AEBounds], [ROBUST], and [GCM-MU].
>    [...]
>    Note:  These limits were originally calculated using assumptions
>       about the limits on TLS record size.  The maximum size of a TLS
>       record is 2^14 bytes.  In comparison, QUIC packets can be up to
>       2^16 bytes.  However, it is expected that QUIC packets will
>       generally be smaller than TLS records.  Where packets might be
>       larger than 2^14 bytes in length, smaller limits might be needed.
>
> (This seems to say that we're just reusing the TLS numbers even though
> in theory we do allow larger packets.  But if that's the case, why do
> the actual numbers we present differ from the ones given for DTLS 1.3?
> The actual text in Appendix B suggests that we are not actually reusing
> the TLS numbers (since we use different estimates for l, and
> furthermore, that [GCM-MU] allows larger limits than [AEBounds] as used
> by TLS 1.3).)
>
>    Any TLS cipher suite that is specified for use with QUIC MUST define
>    limits on the use of the associated AEAD function that preserves
>    margins for confidentiality and integrity.  That is, limits MUST be
>    specified for the number of packets that can be authenticated and for
>    the number of packets that can fail authentication.  Providing a
>    reference to any analysis upon which values are based - and any
>    assumptions used in that analysis - allows limits to be adapted to
>    varying usage conditions.
>
> DTLS 1.3 imposes essentially the same requirement.  IIUC it would be
> acceptable to use the same limit for DTLS 1.3 and for QUIC, and we
> should perhaps say that if a cipher is allowed for one it is allowed for
> the other (with the same limit), though on second though, we really do
> want the analysis to take into account the different assumptions about
> the number of blocks in a packet..
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4500


> Section 9
>
> In various places (e.g., §4.1.4) we recommend to buffer (or "retain")
> data that cannot be processed yet.  Perhaps it goes without saying, but
> such buffering needs limits in place in order to avoid DoS.
>
> It may be too banal to mention again here that the Initial secret/keys
> are not particularly secure, but I'll mention it just in case we want
> to.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4501


> Section 9.6
>
>    The initial secrets use a key that is specific to the negotiated QUIC
>    version.  New QUIC versions SHOULD define a new salt value used in
>    calculating initial secrets.
>
> Also for the Retry Integrity Tag key/nonce secret?
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4502


> Appendix A.1, A.5
>
> I think that RFC 8446 has us write just "" instead of _ to indicate a
> zero-length Context.  I don't see the usage of _ explained anywhere.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4503


> Appendix A.2
>
>    The client sends an Initial packet.  The unprotected payload of this
>    packet contains the following CRYPTO frame, plus enough PADDING
>    frames to make a 1162 byte payload:
>    [...]
>    The unprotected header includes the connection ID and a 4-byte packet
>    number encoding for a packet number of 2:
>
>    c300000001088394c8f03e5157080000449e00000002
>
> If I'm reading this correctly, the variable-length integer encoding of
> the packet Length is 0x449e which would indicate a 1182-byte payload
> (including packet number), not 1162.
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4504


> Appendix A.4
>
> Should we mention specifically the Retry Token value?
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4505


> Appendix B.1.1, B.1.2
>
> I don't think that Theorem 4.3 of [GCM-MU] is the right reference for
> both formulae.  (I actually had trouble matching up any of the formulae
> in the paper with the ones here due to different variable names, and ran
> out of time to dig further.)
>

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4506


> Appendix B.2
>
>    TLS [TLS13] and [AEBounds] do not specify limits on usage for
>    AEAD_AES_128_CCM.  However, any AEAD that is used with QUIC requires
>
> DTLS 1.3 does, though.
>
>    This produces a relation that combines both encryption and decryption
>    attempts with the same limit as that produced by the theorem for
>    confidentiality alone.  For a target advantage of 2^-57, this results
>    in:
>
>    v + q <= 2^34.5 / l
>
>    By setting "q = v", values for both confidentiality and integrity
>    limits can be produced.  Endpoints that limit packets to 2^11 bytes
>    therefore have both confidentiality and integrity limits of 2^26.5
>    packets.  Endpoints that do not restrict packet size have a limit of
>    2^21.5.
>
> DTLS currently has text that does a dedicated computation for "q" and
> then substitutes that established value into this last formula to
> determine the limit for "v".  Should DTLS switch to using an analysis
> more like the one presented here?  (Or vice versa, of course.)
>
>
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4507

Cheers,
Lucas
On behalf of QUIC WG Chairs