Re: ECN in QUIC
Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> Wed, 20 September 2017 14:09 UTC
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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:08:36 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gP5ob73x45wiZAoJsESMkGRA+U8VOom6M-32-uHEsfrUw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC
To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Cc: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, "Bob Briscoe (research@bobbriscoe.net)" <research@bobbriscoe.net>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Eggert, Lars (lars@netapp.com)" <lars@netapp.com>, marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>, Mirja Kühlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Piers O'Hanlon <piers.ohanlon@cs.ox.ac.uk>, QUIC IETF mailing list <quic@ietf.org>, "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
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I think there are good reasons to keep frames smaller and simpler in general. But in this particular case, I think there are strong arguments for putting ECN in the ACK frames. I suspect this would have come up as soon as someone implemented ECN in QUIC. On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Ingemar Johansson S < ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote: > Thanks Ian for the prompt response. > > I must admit that I have perhaps overlooked possible combos of loss and > ECN, the price you pay for working too much with simulators. Your arguments > are very strong indeed. > > > > In the SCReAM congestion control (RMCAT work) the ECN and loss info comes > in the same feedback and the handling of loss and ECN is straightforward > there. Personally I would prefer ECN in the ACK frames and the earlier > drafts suggested formats for that, I however got the impression that there > is a certain resistance against additional things in the ACK frame ?. > > > > /Ingemar > > > > *From:* Ian Swett [mailto:ianswett@google.com] > *Sent:* den 20 september 2017 14:41 > *To:* Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>; Magnus Westerlund < > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>; Bob Briscoe (research@bobbriscoe.net) < > research@bobbriscoe.net>; Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; > Eggert, Lars (lars@netapp.com) <lars@netapp.com>; marcelo bagnulo braun < > marcelo@it.uc3m.es>; Mirja Kühlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; > Piers O'Hanlon <piers.ohanlon@cs.ox.ac.uk>; QUIC IETF mailing list < > quic@ietf.org>; De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) < > koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com> > > *Subject:* Re: ECN in QUIC > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 4:39 AM, Ingemar Johansson S < > ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi > > > > And sorry for the sloth-ish response (you should see me type a text > message..). > > To summarize the two main questions > > > > 1. ECN in ACK frame or in a separate frame : Given the recent > discussion on the list and fear that the ACK frame is already enough > complex, it seems unwise to try to cram in additional info in the ACK > frames. So my personal feeling is that we should use a separate frame type > for ECN , but this frame type must be a MUST to implement and support ! > Comments are very welcome. > > I was neutral on this before, but I started thinking about implementing > this, and separating the frames makes it more complex, and potentially > really, really difficult to get the implementation correct. As an example, > if the frames were accidentally sent in two separate packets, I would count > the packet as acked, and potentially increase the congestion window and > other state variables. I might even send an extra packet based on this > information. Then in the next packet I'd realize that packet had an ECN > marking, and actually should have been treated as lost from a congestion > controller perspective. In order to do this correctly, I'd have to undo a > bunch of things. My experience with undo is that it's terribly error > prone, and I would never recommend it. > > > > Alternately, the ack could get lost, and the next packet would convey ECN > marking information for packets that hadn't been acknowledged yet. Which > is just weird. > > > > If we require support for ECN, then the implementation has a certain extra > level of complexity. As illustrated above, putting it in one frame is > actually simpler overall if the congestion controller needs to use all the > information at once to be implemented correctly. This same logic applies > to timestamps as well, in my opinion. > > > > > 1. > 2. As regards to the level of detail : There are pros and cons with > both alternatives (marked bytes or detailed indication). I would like to > hear the opinions from others as well on this matter . > > > > /Ingemar > > > > *From:* Colin Perkins [mailto:csp@csperkins.org] > *Sent:* den 16 augusti 2017 12:53 > *To:* Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> > *Cc:* QUIC IETF mailing list <quic@ietf.org>; Magnus Westerlund < > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>; Bob Briscoe (research@bobbriscoe.net) < > research@bobbriscoe.net>; Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; > Eggert, Lars (lars@netapp.com) <lars@netapp.com>; marcelo bagnulo braun < > marcelo@it.uc3m.es>; Mirja Kühlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; > Piers O'Hanlon <piers.ohanlon@cs.ox.ac.uk>; De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - > BE/Antwerp) <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com> > *Subject:* Re: ECN in QUIC > > > > > > On 16 Aug 2017, at 10:33, Ingemar Johansson S < > ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > Finally back from vacation, and very grateful for the support to continue > the work to add ECN in QUIC. > > Just to recap.. there were two main topics raised at the meeting > > > > 1) ECN info in ACK frame or in dedicated frame : There were concerns about > adding extra complexity in an already potentially complex ACK frame, one > can have differing opinions about the complexity but can understand the > concerns. As far as I am concerned, a separate frame type for ECN is > possible, possibly one need to add information about the amount of not-ECT > marked packets as well to keep the signaling robust, this needs further > investigation though. One concern with a separate ECN frame is that it > becomes a not-implemented or optional feature, is there any reason to be > worried about this ? > > > > 2) More detailed ECN information : Earlier versions of the ECN in QUIC > draft (seehttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-johansson-quic-ecn-01.txt ) > provided with examples. We (Myself, Koen, Mirja and Praveen) discussed this > and we could not come up with any use case where it is beneficial to know > exactly how each packet is ECN marked. I know that this kind of detailed > ECN information is suggested for the generic feedback for RMCAT and I > personally have a problem to see the gain with the detailed ECN information > also here. Input from others is very welcome here. > > > > For the RMCAT format, we wanted per-packet loss and timing information, > and it was as easy to feedback per-packet ECN information along with it as > to design something different. > > > > A benefit of per-packet ECN marking could be to allow a congestion > controller that reacted differently to bursts of consecutive ECN marks than > it did to isolated ECN marks, given the same fraction of marked packets > (i.e., that reacted to ECN marking events rather than ECN marking rate, > like how TCP responds to loss events). I don’t think we have such a thing, > but certainly in the context of RMCAT where we’re experimenting with novel > congestion control schemes for traffic that has very different > characteristics to traditional bulk flows, it might be plausible. > Per-packet marking information is also useful for troubleshooting. > > > > Certainly we need to know number of NotECT, ECT(0), ECT(1), and ECN-CE > marks since the last report, but I guess that’s already possible. > > > > Cheers, > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > There are a consequences with detailed ECN marking information. > > a) necessary to correlate with the list of transmitted packets, this > increases amount of code on sender side, not sure of that is a large > concern as lookup is anyway needed to process incoming ACKs > > b) necessary to embed ECN information in ACK frame ?, at least this was my > conclusion when I devised the detailed ECN marking info in the 01 version > of the draft. > > > > Comments are welcome > > /Ingemar > > > > > > > > ================================== > > Ingemar Johansson M.Sc. > > Master Researcher > > > > Ericsson AB > > Wireless Access Networks > > Labratoriegränd 11 > > 971 28, Luleå, Sweden > > Phone +46-1071 43042 > > SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289 <+46%2073%20078%2032%2089> > > ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com > > www.ericsson.com > > > > A mistake is to commit a misunderstanding > Bob Dylan > ================================== > > > > > > -- > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ > > > > >
- ECN in QUIC Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: ECN in QUIC Colin Perkins
- RE: ECN in QUIC Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: ECN in QUIC Ian Swett
- RE: ECN in QUIC Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: ECN in QUIC Ian Swett
- Re: ECN in QUIC Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: ECN in QUIC Frank Kastenholz
- Re: ECN in QUIC Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: ECN in QUIC Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: ECN in QUIC Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: ECN in QUIC Christian Huitema
- Re: ECN in QUIC Jana Iyengar
- Re: ECN in QUIC Christian Huitema
- Re: ECN in QUIC Colin Perkins
- RE: ECN in QUIC Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: ECN in QUIC Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: ECN in QUIC Gorry Fairhurst
- RE: ECN in QUIC Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: ECN in QUIC Jana Iyengar
- RE: ECN in QUIC Ingemar Johansson S