Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Wed, 14 March 2018 13:47 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 06:46:18 -0700
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Subject: Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: Mirja Kühlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 3:32 AM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote: > At this point, I think we will still benefit from having some face-to-face > time devoted to this these issues, even if many people feel we shouldn't > take the DTLS proposal wholesale. > > Having said that, the recent re-statement of the issues as 1) stream 0 and > 2) the layering question seems most appropriate. EKR, can you make sure > your presentation focuses on them, with DTLS as one possible solution? I'll > adjust the title in the agenda accordingly. > Willdo. This is consistent with how I was intending to present this. Thanks, -Ekr > > Cheers, > > > > On 13 Mar 2018, at 6:30 pm, Mirja Kühlewind < > mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote: > > > > Hi Mark, > > > > coming back to this initial mail, I believe that it is clear that people > are interested in the problem(s) that this proposal is addressing but not > the actually solution as there is a strong feeling that it is too late for > such a fundamental change in the process. > > > > I just looked at the draft agenda and it (still) say "QUIC over DTLS > Proposal". Is there a plan to change this and level this up to a more > higher level discussion on the problems or do people still want to use the > time to discuss this concrete proposal? > > > > Mirja > > > > > > On 06.03.2018 02:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> Thanks for the proposal, EKR. We'll track this as < > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1165>. > >> Since we're trying to nail down the invariants in London (or soon > afterwards), I'd like to figure out the WG's feelings on this pretty > quickly. > >> I know folks need a chance to read and digest, but it would be > extremely helpful if we could have some initial discussion on-list now. > Please focus on the technical merit of the proposal, clarifying questions, > and statements of support/lack thereof. > >> Assuming it's still a topic of interest in two weeks, we'll schedule > some time to discuss it in London. EKR, could you please submit a > presentation (say, max 20 minutes, plus discussion time afterwards) ASAP? > >> Cheers, > >>> On 6 Mar 2018, at 10:05 am, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi folks, > >>> > >>> Sorry to be the one randomizing things again, but the asymmetric > >>> conn-id thing went well, so here goes.... > >>> > >>> TL;DR. > >>> I'd like to discuss refactoring things to run QUIC over DTLS. > >>> > >>> DETAILS > >>> When we originally designed the interaction between TLS and QUIC, > >>> there seemed like a lot of advantages to embedding the crypto > >>> handshake on stream 0, in particular the ability to share a common > >>> reliability and congestion mechanism. However, as we've gotten further > >>> along in design and implementation, it's also become clear that it's > >>> archictecturally kind of crufty and this creates a bunch of problems, > >>> including: > >>> > >>> * Stream 0 is unencrypted at the beginning of the connection, but > >>> encrypted after the handshake completes, and you still need > >>> to service it. > >>> > >>> * Retransmission of stream 0 frames from lost packets needs special > >>> handling to avoid accidentally encrypting them. > >>> > >>> * Stream 0 is not subject to flow control; it can exceed limits and > >>> goes into negative credit after the handshake completes. > >>> > >>> * There are complicated rules about which packets can ACK other > >>> packets, as both cleartext and ciphertext ACKs are possible. > >>> > >>> * Very tight coupling between the crypto stack and the transport > >>> stack, especially in terms of knowing where you are in the > >>> crypto state machine. > >>> > >>> I've been looking at an alternative design in which we instead adopt a > >>> more natural layering of putting QUIC on top of DTLS. The basic > >>> intuition is that you do a DTLS handshake and just put QUIC frames > >>> directly in DTLS records (rather than QUIC packets). This > >>> significantly reduces the degree of entanglement between the two > >>> components and removes the corner cases above, as well as just > >>> generally being a more conventional architecture. Of course, no design > >>> is perfect, but on balance, I think this is a cleaner structure. > >>> > >>> I have a draft for this at: > >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rescorla-quic-over-dtls/ > >>> > >>> And a partial implementation of it in Minq at: > >>> > >>> Mint: https://github.com/ekr/mint/tree/dtls_for_quic > >>> Minq: https://github.com/ekr/minq/tree/quic_over_dtls > >>> > >>> > >>> I can't speak for anyone else's implementation, but at least in my > >>> case, the result was considerable simplification. > >>> > >>> It's natural at this point to say that this is coming late in the > >>> process after we have a lot invested in the current design, as well as > >>> to worry that it will delay the process. That's not my intention, and > >>> as I say in the draft, many of the issues we have struggled over > >>> (headers especially) can be directly ported into this architecture (or > >>> perhaps just reused with QUIC-over-DTLS while letting ordinary DTLS do > >>> its thing) and this change would allow us to sidestep issued we are > >>> still fighting with, so on balance I believe we can keep the schedule > >>> impact contained. > >>> > >>> We are designing a protocol that will be used long into the future, so > >>> having the right architecture is especially important. Our goal has > >>> always been to guide this effort by implementation experience and we > >>> are learning about the deficiencies of the Stream 0 design as we go > >>> down our current path. If the primary concern to this proposal is > >>> schedule we should have an explicit discussion about those relative > >>> priorities in the context of the pros and cons of the proposal. > >>> > >>> The hackathon would be a good opportunity to have a face to face chat > >>> about this in addition to on-list discussion. > >>> > >>> Thanks in advance for taking a look, > >>> -Ekr > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> -- > >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > <mirja_kuehlewind.vcf> > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > >
- Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Salz, Rich
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ian Swett
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Subodh Iyengar
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Marten Seemann
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Patrick McManus
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eggert, Lars
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Roberto Peon
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mike Bishop
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Victor Vasiliev
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Subodh Iyengar
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Martin Duke
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christopher Wood
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Leif Hedstrom
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Gabriel Montenegro
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Philipp S. Tiesel
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla