Re: [Wish] [AVTCORE] Video ingest over QUIC

[Alan Frindell <[e-mail]>]

Scheduling Update:

Our draft will be presented at ART area on Monday and mops on Tuesday.

I moved the side meeting to Friday at 11 Pacific to avoid conflict with iabopen.

Thanks

-Alan

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 1:59 PM
To: Alan Frindell <[e-mail]>
Cc: Martin Duke <[e-mail]>, Lucas Pardue <[e-mail]>, Victor Vasiliev <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, Roberto Peon <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, Mike English <[e-mail]>, QUIC WG <[e-mail]>, Kirill Pugin <[e-mail]>, Luke Curley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Wish] [AVTCORE] Video ingest over QUIC

Hi, Alan,

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 11:55 AM Alan Frindell <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Kirill and I are scheduled to present this draft at the ART area session (combined with DISPATCH) on Monday 7/26 from 12-2 Pacific.  We’ve also been approached by the MOPS chairs to present there, though that session conflicts with QUIC.

We've gotta watch for this conflict ... but

I also scheduled a side meeting<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/111sidemeetings> during Thursday Session IV (4:30 – 5:30 Pacific, vide conference details TBD) so we can have more time to discuss the general problem space, requirements and mailing list/BoF logistics moving forward.

Thank you for setting this up. It seems just about right.

Best,

Spencer

Thanks

-Alan

From: Martin Duke <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Date: Monday, July 19, 2021 at 7:45 AM
To: Lucas Pardue <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Victor Vasiliev <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Roberto Peon <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Mike English <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Alan Frindell <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, QUIC WG <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Kirill Pugin <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Luke Curley <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: [Wish] [AVTCORE] Video ingest over QUIC

This sounds like a side meeting that might lead to a BoF at 112?

On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 5:18 PM Lucas Pardue <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2021, 19:36 Spencer Dawkins at IETF, <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
This is, of course, why ADs get paid the big bucks (ha!), but

On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:10 PM Mike English <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
I would personally be very interested in a "video over QUIC" working group or mailing list.

Martin Thompson said (in a reply that, I think, only went to the QUIC mailing list(*)) that he thought this was big enough to BOF (which doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed at DISPATCH at IETF 111), but does say something about what a mailing list could be used for. Offhand, I can imagine:

  *   discussion of the existing https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html<https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html> draft
  *   discussion of potential scope for a BOF proposal
  *   discussion of proposed text for a BOF request
Could I ask what the people who are expressing interest in a mailing list are thinking about?

+1. Good questions.

There seems to be some appetite for _something_ that doesn't fit in existing boxes. Defining exactly what might be would be a sensible step on the path to a BoF.

Cheers,
Lucas


Best,

Spencer

(*) email is archived at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/ocCm8E-GzP_pn4LBcJyKQeN7GRU/<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/ocCm8E-GzP_pn4LBcJyKQeN7GRU/>.

The directness of this draft is perhaps what's most interesting to me.
In particular, the absence of out-of-band signaling / session establishment stands in striking contrast with another UDP-based media ingest option: WebRTC.

The signaling needed for session establishment (and the diversity of implementations for such signaling) has historically been a barrier for WebRTC adoption as an ingest protocol outside of the browser context. WISH-WG is working to improve that situation for WebRTC of course, but a new QUIC-based ingest protocol presents an opportunity to sidestep some of those known-issues by making an architectural decision up front about whether that style of session management is necessary in a video contribution workflow.

I'm hoping others with more experience on these lists can speak to the history and tradeoffs associated with those approaches, but I just wanted to call attention to the aspect of the draft that seemed most notable to me as an operator of a low latency streaming platform where WebRTC egress and ingest capabilities are provided, but where RTMP is still the de facto ingest protocol of choice for many users.

Thanks for sharing this work!
-Mike

On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:32 PM Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi Alan,

Excited to see this draft!

Since this isn't technically in scope for either avtcore, wish or quic working groups, what would people think about making a new mailing list for video over QUIC?

Cheers,
 Victor.

On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 3:27 AM Justin Uberti <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
+1

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 1:35 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Seems like a good idea to me, unless there is a home that is already well suited!
-=R

From: QUIC <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of Luke Curley <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 1:16 PM
To: Alan Frindell <afrind=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Sergio Garcia Murillo <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Kirill Pugin <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC

Hey Alan, thanks for publishing your protocol!

Twitch has also been working on a video over QUIC protocol, albeit primarily for video distribution instead of contribution. We're very interested in collaborating on RUSH and producing a new standard for live streaming! Would there be broader interest in forming a video over QUIC working group?

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 12:04 PM Alan Frindell <afrind=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi Sergio, thanks for your interest in the draft.

I’m interested in seeing a video ingest protocol standard that leverages QUIC as a transport, has some partial reliability support, and is less connection-oriented so that servers can go down for maintenance without impacting ingest reliability or having arbitrarily long drain times.  We published our RUSH draft to help kickstart the conversation but we’re open to feedback and modifications if they help advance those goals.

Thanks

-Alan

From: Sergio Garcia Murillo <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 9:02 AM
To: Alan Frindell <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Kirill Pugin <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC

Hi Alan,

I think that the correct place for discussing it is AVTCORE as Bernard has indicated, as  WISH is not chartered to implement any new media protocol.

The draft is very interesting and I would be willing to collaborate, what is your main interest? Do you want to try to publish it as it is or would you be accepting feedback and include modifications?

Best regards
Sergio



El mar, 13 jul 2021 a las 17:37, Alan Frindell (<afrind=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>) escribió:
Hi, for several years, Facebook has been using its own video ingest protocol over QUIC from our apps to our infra.  While we’ve spoken about it before, we just now published a draft documenting how it works:  https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html<https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html>.

The protocol leverages the advantages of QUIC transport, and features a partially reliable mode using only QUIC v1 RST_STREAM.

We welcome your feedback

Thanks

-Alan Frindell





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