Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS
Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> Fri, 09 March 2018 17:42 UTC
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To: Gabriel Montenegro <Gabriel.Montenegro=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Leif Hedstrom <leif@ogre.com>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 09:42:36 -0800
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Subject: Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS
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On 3/9/2018 9:24 AM, Gabriel Montenegro wrote: > Another interesting result of this discussion is Subodh’s suggestion to clarify the interfaces between subsystems (“layering structure”): QUIC transport and packetization vs crypto on stream 0 vs UDP. In fact, the current QUIC design is a good example of the evolution in protocol architecture from "layering" to "functional decomposition". The layering approach, as popularized by the OSI model, consider the system as a set of filters layered on top of each other. It is a powerful approach, but it has limitations. The biggest limitation is tied to the design principle: each layer obscures the view of the other layers; to mitigate that, the layer API needs a set of pass-through functions, such as for example passing a setsockopt to TCP across TLS. In contrast, functional decomposition looks at big functions such as reliability, forward error correction, real time delivery, and arranges the protocol as an assembly of these functions. This is very much the direction pointed to by TAPS. In the case of QUIC, the relation with TLS is an example of such functional decomposition, treating TLS as a black box that negotiates keys. We can certainly agree that the stream zero approach is not ideal. It may very well be that a set of TLS oriented frame types would be much cleaner. But in my mind a strict layering approach on top of DTLS would not be architecturally cleaner. I believe that it would be a step backward. -- Christian Huitema
- Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Salz, Rich
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ian Swett
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Subodh Iyengar
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Marten Seemann
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Patrick McManus
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eggert, Lars
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Roberto Peon
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mike Bishop
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Victor Vasiliev
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Subodh Iyengar
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Martin Duke
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christopher Wood
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Leif Hedstrom
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Gabriel Montenegro
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Philipp S. Tiesel
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla