Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension
David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com> Mon, 04 November 2019 22:56 UTC
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From: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 14:55:57 -0800
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Subject: Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension
To: Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Cc: QUIC <quic@ietf.org>
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On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 2:35 PM Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com> wrote: > Response also inline > > > On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 1:47 PM Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> (reposting on proper topic) >> >> Some random observations reading through the document >> >> - Is the order relevant in the receiver version list? >> > > Yes all lists of versions are ordered. > > I might have missed it, but otherwise I think this should be mentioned > explicitly. > Isn't it mentioned in the definitions of these fields? > - It is tempting to just hash the received version list, but that requires >> agreeing on an algorithm, unless the algorithm is stated to be specific to >> that version, which is complicated. >> > > Which list are you referring to? For all the ones in the draft, the peer > needs access to all the elements so I don't think a hash would help. > > I am referring the received list. The client receives the list. The server > (modulo redeployment/routing) knows its own list and does not need to read > it, it just needs proof that the response matches what it initially sent. > This could be done with a hash. (If I understand correctly). But maybe not > because the list is filtered by clients input so that would be many hashes > to track. > I don't know what the received list is, there's nothing with that name in the draft. > - VERSION_NEGOTIATION_ERROR vs drop - I’m not sure it is a good idea to >> close the connection. The initials are public so it is possible to inject >> false versions. There are probably many other similar attacks we don’t >> bother with, but still … >> > > Once we're this far in the handshake, we cannot recover from this error. > Dropping the packet will only make things worse. > > It is that a given across all versions, without mentioning it explicitly > here? This links to the at most one roundtrip. > That's a given across all current versions. New versions can override the text in this spec. > - Downgrade - I’m a bit worried about state management and server >> redeployments. A server could reject a valid packet because an Initial was >> routed to a new server. (Reading further, I see this is addressed). This is >> probably a pragmatic solution, but it has an assumption about eventual >> global coordination. I suspect something could be done here with tokens or >> CID routing, but it is not trivial. >> > > Sounds interesting. Do you have a concrete proposal? > > Not off hand, but the idea is that the server encodes some context in a > token, that an upgraded server can understand such that it can either > impersonate the old version or reject the handshake. As for CID routing: (I > don’t recall if new initials with new version must carry same original CID, > and this might be version specific) - but if the a second Initial routes > the same place, similar to 0-RTT, you can limit the impact of server > deployment coordination to the one or the few servers affected by that CID. > If a version negotiation packet decides a new CID via the destination CID > field, a server farm is also able to route traffic to a segment with a > predictable version scope - for example by never updating some servers on > even hours and always redirect vneg to a subcluster that is not upgrading > and which therefor has a predictable version scope. > The current design of connection IDs does not guarantee consistent routing on client-generated server connection IDs, so I don't think we can rely on it. > - Security Considerations - perhaps it is worth noting the transport >> parameters need additional protection beyond the Initial packet protection? >> This follows from TLS, but if TLS is not being used, this can version >> negotiation even if other parts of the protocol version is not sensitive to >> this in that particular version. >> > > draft-ietf-quic-transport section 7 requires transport parameters to be > authenticated. > > but that is for QUIC v1. QUIC v3 might be for constrained devices that do > not use TLS and which do not migrate and which only has two non-hardcoded > transport parameters which are verified in 1-RTT in order to achieve a > light handshake. What would vneg do then? Notably such a version would > depend heavily on vneg because it really needs the one version that works > with its hardware accelerator, or whatever. > I think QUICv3 should also provide this property, otherwise it'll be likely to be unsafe. If a future version doesn't have authenticated transport parameters then we'll have to create a separate downgrade prevention mechanism. But we can cross that bridge when we get there. > - Improve discussion of Previously Attempted Version. While the >> requirements are readable, the purpose of doing this check is less obvious. >> Presumably this deals with downgrade attacks, but more explanation would be >> appreciated. >> > > The downgrade prevention section discusses the purpose of this field. What > details do you think we should add? > > Generally QUIC does not argue why something is done, although sometimes > providing motivation (like you do here - downgrade prevention), but I’d > still like to better understand why this prevents a downgrade and why a > downgrade is such a bad thing, and how such an attack could happen, and why > comparing the previous version would prevent that from happening. Because > this is such a core element if the entire document. > It sounds like we could be clearer. Would you be able to send us a PR?
- QUIC Version Negotiation Extension David Schinazi
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension David Schinazi
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension Christian Huitema
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension David Schinazi
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension David Schinazi
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension David Schinazi
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension Martin Thomson
- RE: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension Mike Bishop
- Re: QUIC Version Negotiation Extension David Schinazi