Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension
David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com> Fri, 24 September 2021 16:46 UTC
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From: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 09:46:28 -0700
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Subject: Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, QUIC WG Chairs <quic-chairs@ietf.org>
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Thanks Spencer! I've approved the PR - we can merge it at the end of WGLC assuming no one objects. David On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 6:08 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, David, > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 6:53 PM David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Spencer, >> >> Yes, your interpretation is correct. The language about whether it's >> interchangeably one frame type or two frame types mirrors RFC 9000's >> definition of the STREAM frame which is also one or eight frames depending >> on how you look at it < >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9000#section-19.8>. >> > > Thank you for the background here (I was watching the base QUIC drafts, > but spent a lot of time looking at diffs, rather than re-reading carefully, > so your pointer was super helpful). > > I did see a couple of places where the STREAM frame type was using plurals > (for example, > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9000.html#name-stream-frames, plural, > versus > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-quic-datagram-04.html#name-datagram-frame-type, > singular), so I included that in the PR. I swear, if I wasn't looking for > the second datagram frame type in the second called "datagram frame type", > I wouldn't have noticed anything 🙂) > > And it really was a couple of small changes. Thanks for considering my > comments. > > Best, > > SPencer > > >> Regarding your editorial comments, could I ask you to send them our way >> as a PR to <https://github.com/quicwg/datagram> ? >> >> Thanks, >> David >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 4:33 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < >> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi, Lucas, >>> >>> I'm top-posting to say that I'm not talking about multiplexing >>> datagrames now (except to thank you and Christian for your replies), but >>> I'm still looking at the datagram draft, and noticed something odd. Could >>> you put your working group chair hat back on for a moment? >>> >>> From the Introduction: >>> >>> *This document defines two new DATAGRAM QUIC frame types, which carry >>> application data without requiring retransmissions.* >>> >>> >>> And most of the document about "datagram frame types" (plural), but >>> pretty much all of >>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-quic-datagram-04.html#name-datagram-frame-type >>> talks about "the datagram frame type" (singular) - even the section header >>> uses the singular phrasing, along with the caption to Figure 1. >>> >>> I understand what the document is saying, to be >>> >>> - there are two datagram frame types, 0x30 and 0x31 >>> - the only difference between these two datagram frame types is that >>> datagram frames with frame type 0x30 do not include a length field, while >>> datagram frames with frame type 0x31 do contain a contain a length field, >>> and >>> - otherwise, whatever this document says about "datagrams" is true >>> for both datagram frame types. >>> >>> Is that about right? >>> >>> I can dig that out from the document, but if that was clearer in Section >>> 4 - "Datagram Frame Types", and a couple of clarifying sentences, that >>> might be a bit easier for the reader (and, of course, for the various >>> review teams that will be looking at this document for the first time >>> during IETF Last Call). >>> >>> As long as I'm still typing, I might mention one other thing - I >>> searched for the string "reliabl" in the draft, and there are 24 >>> occurrences, which is fine, although perhaps repetitive, until you get down >>> to >>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-quic-datagram-04.html#name-behavior-and-usage, >>> which says >>> >>> When an application sends an unreliable datagram over a QUIC >>> connection, QUIC will generate a new DATAGRAM frame and send it in the >>> first available packet. This frame SHOULD be sent as soon as possible, and >>> MAY be coalesced with other frames. >>> >>> >>> Could "unreliable" be dropped from the first sentence? It would belong >>> there if reliable datagrams were an option, but (after 20 occurrences >>> explaining that all datagrams are unreliable), maybe this is just inviting >>> confusion. >>> >>> Thanks for considering my comments, of course. Do The Right Thing! >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Spencer >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:12 PM Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Spencer, >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 6:52 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < >>>> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, Lucas and Matt, >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 3:35 PM Lucas Pardue < >>>>> lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello QUIC WG, >>>>>> >>>>>> This email starts the Working Group Last Call for "An Unreliable >>>>>> Datagram Extension to QUIC", located at: >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-quic-datagram-04.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Please take time to review it carefully and raise any remaining >>>>>> issues you see either on the GitHub repo issues list[1] or on this mailing >>>>>> list. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've re-read the discussion in >>>>> https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/issues/6, and now better >>>>> understand the points of view that resulted in the lack of datagram >>>>> multiplexing in this specification (I was following that discussion when it >>>>> was happening, but hindsight during re-reading helped a lot!) >>>>> >>>>> I especially appreciate the addition of the text in >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-quic-datagram-04.html#name-multiplexing-datagrams >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> I accept the wisdom of getting more experience with various people >>>>> using application-defined multiplexing in various ways before adding any >>>>> flavor of multiplexing at the transport layer, and agree that holding this >>>>> specification up while that experience is gathered, would not be The Right >>>>> Thing To Do. >>>>> >>>>> I'm aware of at least two "RTP over QUIC" proposals that assume that >>>>> they'll need to multiplex datagrams, so I won't be surprised if we return >>>>> to this question in the future, but for now, the chairs are Doing The Right >>>>> Thing, and I support requesting publication of -04 (modulo any changes that >>>>> pop up in WGLC, of course). >>>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your comments. >>>> >>>> Chair hat off, speaking as an individual. To add to the examples, the >>>> MASQUE working group is working on a draft to define HTTP's use of QUIC >>>> DATAGRAM frames and it includes multiplexing [1]. The working group's 00 >>>> draft started with a single variable-length integer multiplexing identifier >>>> called the Flow ID. After some fruitful WG implementation and discussion, >>>> in draft 01 it switched to an identifier tuple (Quarter Stream ID, Contenxt >>>> ID). I'd say that we're still figuring out exactly how the things the >>>> __use__ datagrams, want to use datagrams. I think it's too early to >>>> understand the right common transport solution at this time, and that >>>> leaving it undefined does not prevent people from using datagram frames for >>>> their own precise needs and purpose. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Lucas >>>> >>>> [1] - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-masque-h3-datagram >>>> >>>
- WGLC for Datagram Extension Lucas Pardue
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Eliot Lear
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Paul Vixie
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Martin Thomson
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Tommy Pauly
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Christian Huitema
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Ian Swett
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Eliot Lear
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Eliot Lear
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Lucas Pardue
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Christian Huitema
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension David Schinazi
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension David Schinazi
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Martin Duke
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Lucas Pardue
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Lucas Pardue
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Tommy Pauly
- Re: WGLC for Datagram Extension Mirja Kuehlewind