Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encryption)
Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com> Fri, 06 April 2018 05:08 UTC
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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 14:08:35 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzwhfy9kLAH5t0eVwr2Kfh_3ToSamPeyCtkUmCSGhcZ=JA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encryption)
To: Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch" <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "huitema@huitema.net" <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "martin.thomson@gmail.com" <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "fkautz@alumni.cmu.edu" <fkautz@alumni.cmu.edu>
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2018-04-06 13:33 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>: > So eventually CID’s will ossify into certain lenghts by convention to > things working smoothly in the general case? > That is a good point, but I think that the answer is no. In the long header format, the lengths of CID's are sent in clear in the latest working version of the draft. And if I recall correctly, people are interested in greasing the CID lengths by advertising CIDs longer than necessary against a minor portion of the clients. We assume that the shortest length of CID is zero, and an endpoint that uses a zero-length CID can grease it to any length. To summarize, we will be greasing CID length regardless of if we include it as part of the short header. > ------------------------------ > *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kazuho Oku < > kazuhooku@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Friday, April 6, 2018 6:02:23 AM > *To:* Lubashev, Igor > *Cc:* mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch; huitema@huitema.net; quic@ietf.org; > martin.thomson@gmail.com; fkautz@alumni.cmu.edu > > *Subject:* Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus on packet > number encryption) > > > > 2018-04-06 12:48 GMT+09:00 Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>: > >> > The length of DCID can be a signal to the stateless load balancers. >> >> Short headers do not have an explicit CID length, so we are back to >> validating the integrity of CID, no? What am I missing? >> > > Yeah I missed that, apparently. Thank you for pointing that out. > > So I would propose to encrypt the type bits _and_ have DCID length in the > header in cleartext. > > By doing that, it will still be possible for stateless load balancers to > determine if a packet is initial (by checking if DCIL is 8) without > decrypting the packet, at the same time being impossible for a middlebox to > reliably determine the same thing (assuming that some servers will > advertise DCID of 8 octets). > > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* Kazuho Oku [kazuhooku@gmail.com] >> *Received:* Thursday, 05 Apr 2018, 10:56PM >> *To:* Martin Thomson [martin.thomson@gmail.com] >> *CC:* Mirja Kühlewind [mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch]; QUIC WG [ >> quic@ietf.org]; Christian Huitema [huitema@huitema.net]; Frederick Kautz >> [fkautz@alumni.cmu.edu <fkautz@alumni..cmu.edu>] >> *Subject:* Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus on packet >> number encryption) >> >> Hi Martin, >> >> Thank you for the response.. My comments inline. >> >> 2018-04-06 11:34 GMT+09:00 Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>: >> >>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 12:06 PM, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > If I understand correctly, Christian's concern is that some middleboxes >>> > might only create a hole if the first packet sent by a client (using a >>> new >>> > port) looks like a Initial packet. >>> >>> Oh, I didn't get the same impression, but it does seem like a valid >>> concern. The idea I had was to have clients migrate often enough that >>> those middleboxes will see those migrations and not incorrectly assume >>> that flows have to start with Initial packets. >>> >>> Of course, migrating often like this might not provide enough >>> incentive to avoid that practice because clients will likely make new >>> connections when the old one fails. But given that this sort of >>> failure probably involves a timeout before the repair, it's probably >>> still noticeable enough to generate support tickets (and incentive to >>> allow the migration to pass). >>> >>> Existing middleboxes that pass UDP will be fine, so we at least have >>> that in our favour. >>> >>> > 1. frequent gratuitous migration by clients, so that middlebox vendors >>> can >>> > notice that there design is wrong prior to shipping it >>> >>> That is what this was angling for. The question being how frequent. >>> >>> > 3. mimic 0-RTT handshake when gratuitously switching to a new UDP flow >>> > (depends on #1262) >>> > >>> > 1 and 2 have been discussed on this thread. I haven't yet seen 3 being >>> > discussed. >>> >>> It has been suggested a few times elsewhere. The question is how far >>> you go: do you send Initial and Handshake packets that use the >>> handshake packet protection and carry apparently real ClientHello and >>> ServerHello messages? Do you restrict the flow of packets to match >>> 0-RTT? >>> >>> > The concerns so far being raised for 1 is that NATs might run out of >>> > unassigned ports and that switching to a new path might trigger the >>> restart >>> > of congestion control on large-scale NATs that use multiple public >>> > addresses. >>> >>> That is possible, but it depends on how often you attempt this. CGNAT >>> does try to keep IP addresses for the same device stable. If not, >>> then a congestion controller reset for relatively infrequent >>> migrations isn't so bad if heuristics fail. It's only when you have >>> very frequent migration that the resets becomes burdensome. >>> >> >> How frequent is the issue here. >> >> If it's too frequent, some NATs could run out of unassigned ports, and if >> depending on their eviction algorithm, shutdown UDP-based flows running >> other protocols that do not do gratuitous switching. Other NATs could start >> assigning new public addresses as they run out of unassigned ports. >> >> If it's too infrequent, then the chance of seeing misimplemented >> middlebox becomes higher. >> >> >>> > The concern so far being raised for 2 is that stateless load balancers >>> would >>> > be required to decrypt the type field (or the entire packet, depending >>> on >>> > how we encrypt) to determine if a packet is trying to initiate a new >>> > connection. >>> >>> Yeah, that's hard. Having the load balancer hit the slow path for >>> every packet seems pretty fatal. >>> >> >> That was my understanding until I started to consider the impact of >> symmetric CIDs. >> >> The length of DCID can be a signal to the stateless load balancers for >> distinguishing an initial packet. If people interested in using that type >> of load balancer can agree that they will be using CID other than 8 octets, >> the length can be used as the signal by them. >> >> More detail about using DCID can be found on >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/quic/current/msg03809.html >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_quic_current_msg03809.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=Djn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&m=WsJaFd1M4_j4sdAutwoZzcMiZ8Ut8mmyHO9Jn0FAQOI&s=gTP2rfuzpXp0_GdcmG8aA_N4hlvaYnhj6H_CVyXBK10&e=> >> . >> >> -- >> Kazuho Oku >> > > > > -- > Kazuho Oku > -- Kazuho Oku
- Hardware acceleration and packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Eric Rescorla
- RE: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Deval, Manasi
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Subodh Iyengar
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Christian Huitema
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Ian Swett
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Christian Huitema
- RE: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Deval, Manasi
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Salz, Rich
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Ian Swett
- RE: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Swindells, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)
- RE: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Deval, Manasi
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Christian Huitema
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Jana Iyengar
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Ian Swett
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Watson Ladd
- RE: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Mark Nottingham
- RE: Hardware acceleration and packet number encry… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Getting to consensus on packet number encryption Mark Nottingham
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Willy Tarreau
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Patrick McManus
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Patrick McManus
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Patrick McManus
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ted Hardie
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mike Bishop
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Dmitri Tikhonov
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Roberto Peon
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ian Swett
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mark Nottingham
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Christian Huitema
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Martin Thomson
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Willy Tarreau
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- ECN signaling from userland Re: Getting to consen… Lars Eggert
- Re: ECN signaling from userland Re: Getting to co… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… alexandre.ferrieux
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Philipp S. Tiesel
- Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus on p… Christian Huitema
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Frederick Kautz
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Christian Huitema
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Privacy holes Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- RE: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Mike Bishop
- RE: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- RE: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- RE: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Lubashev, Igor
- RE: ECN signaling from userland Re: Getting to co… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Frederick Kautz
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Willy Tarreau
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Martin Thomson
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Martin Thomson
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- RE: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Martin Thomson
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- Grips in the Wire Image for In-Network State (was… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Grips in the Wire Image for In-Network State … Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Martin Thomson
- Re: Privacy holes Roland Zink
- Re: Grips in the Wire Image for In-Network State … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Grips in the Wire Image for In-Network State … Martin Thomson
- Re: Grips in the Wire Image for In-Network State … Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Grips in the Wire Image for In-Network State … Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Privacy holes Ian Swett
- Re: Grips in the Wire Image for In-Network State … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Grips in the Wire Image for In-Network State … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Grips in the Wire Image for In-Network State … Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ian Swett
- Bona fide loss measurement bits alexandre.ferrieux
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Roberto Peon
- Re: [Potential Spoof] Re: Getting to consensus on… Roberto Peon
- RE: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Privacy holes Christian Huitema
- RE: Privacy holes Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Ian Swett
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Martin Thomson
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: Privacy holes (was: Re: Getting to consensus … Mike Bishop
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Roberto Peon
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Christian Huitema
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Christian Huitema
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Christian Huitema
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Deval, Manasi
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Jana Iyengar
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ian Swett
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Christian Huitema
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mike Bishop
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ian Swett
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mike Bishop
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ian Swett
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Erik Kline
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Patrick McManus
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ian Swett
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Patrick McManus
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Jana Iyengar
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Martin Thomson
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Boris Pismenny
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Roberto Peon
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Christian Huitema
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ian Swett
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Martin Thomson
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Martin Thomson
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Salz, Rich
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Roberto Peon
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ted Hardie
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ted Hardie
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Roberto Peon
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Roberto Peon
- Re: [Potential Spoof] Re: Getting to consensus on… Roberto Peon
- Re: [Potential Spoof] Re: Getting to consensus on… Jana Iyengar
- RE: [Potential Spoof] Re: Getting to consensus on… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: [Potential Spoof] Re: Getting to consensus on… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Ian Swett
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Roni Even (A)
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Gorry Fairhurst
- RE: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Christian Huitema
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Getting to consensus on packet number encrypt… Christian Huitema