Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Recovery to the Late-Stage Process
Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> Wed, 13 November 2019 14:39 UTC
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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:39:26 -0500
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Subject: Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Recovery to the Late-Stage Process
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com>
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I'm not aware of anything important in-flight( :) ) for recovery. #3066 <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3066> has been in the editor's copy for over a week now, and did not quite make -24, so I would recommend reading the editors copy. There is one handshake optimization PR(#3080 <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3080>) and an alternate solution to the amplification deadlock(#3162 <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3162>), but neither is critical in my opinion. There is a possibility of the discard keys conversation changing recovery, though at least one solution(HANDSHAKE_DONE <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>) does not require any changes. If changes are required, I expect them to be ~2-3 sentences. On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 7:43 PM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote: > Put another way, I think Gorry's planned review of draft-24 is probably > premature. > > On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 4:42 PM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> IMO the recovery draft is in the midst of a major revision dealing with >> the aftereffects of discarding the crypto timeout. Ian still has a bunch of >> stuff in flight for this. When all of those PRs land I would like to have a >> short period to review the working draft and see if it looks good. >> >> On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 7:40 AM Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote: >> >>> I'll also note that it's relatively easy from a spec perspective to >>> allow trailers to arrive before the end of the body, or to allow multiple >>> sets of trailers to arrive. I suspect most clients won't process trailers >>> until they have the body anyway, but the real question is what clients do >>> with multiple trailer sets. I'm not certain whether that's in our scope or >>> not, but that's a separate conversation. Feel free to open an issue for >>> that specific discussion. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham >>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:01 PM >>> To: Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com> >>> Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>; IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org> >>> Subject: Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Recovery to >>> the Late-Stage Process >>> >>> Hi Roy, >>> >>> Responding to the parts relevant to this CfC. >>> >>> > On 7 Nov 2019, at 5:39 am, Roy T. Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com> wrote: >>> > >>> >> On Nov 5, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Previously, we've moved to the 'late-stage process' documented at [1] >>> for the Transport and TLS drafts. The chairs and editors now feel that it's >>> time to move the Recovery, HTTP/3, and QPACK drafts to that process as well. >>> >> >>> >> As before, this is because we're getting to a stage we feel the >>> documents would benefit from slower and slightly more formal process, so >>> that the rate of change is not so high, changes that do occur are >>> well-vetted, and the documents get closer to reflecting consensus in the >>> working group. >>> > >>> > I don't think that process has worked well for QUIC. >>> >>> Noted. >>> >>> > There are specific issues that are contentious enough to timebox and >>> > conclude, in a formal (and faster) fashion than was done before. >>> > That makes sense when needed for a specific issue. I don't know of any >>> > such issues for those three drafts. IOW, I don't know of any issues >>> > for which it makes sense for the Chairs to pre-empt the specification >>> > authors in deciding what can or cannot result in changes to the drafts >>> > just because of the timing of when the issue was raised. >>> >>> You misunderstand the process; the Chairs aren't pre-empting anything, >>> the group is attempting to agree to a path to completing this work. >>> >>> > The late-stage process seems to focus all of our energy into >>> > in/out-of-scope arguments rather than actual text in the >>> specifications. >>> >>> I don't see any evidence for that claim; what makes you believe that? >>> >>> > The last interim spent easily twice as much time discussing process >>> > and process planning than it did HTTP/3. Prior interims were worse. >>> >>> We spent a day talking about transport and TLS, part of a morning >>> talking about planning the future of our work (if you want to call that >>> "process and process planning") and the bulk of the (longer) afternoon >>> session talking about H3. This isn't surprising, since our goal for the >>> meeting was to get the Transport and TLS documents close to finished. >>> >>> > I don't even recall the last time contents of the HTTP/3 spec being >>> > discussed on list, outside of very specific issues related to >>> transport. >>> > I would like to see HTTP/3 written with HTTP in mind, not as a set of >>> > diffs against h2. >>> >>> That is by charter; we're largely limited to mapping H2 onto QUIC. >>> >>> > This is not a small undertaking, but it isn't a massive one either.. >>> > Basically, import the bits of h2 that are necessary to explain >>> > HTTP/3's operation and intent, and then start referencing the >>> > http-core drafts instead of 723x. Yes, I know that is risky, but it is >>> the right thing to do. >>> > And it needs to be done before http-core is finished, since that >>> > effort exists largely to place the right content (in the right places) >>> > for >>> > HTTP/3 to reference. >>> >>> AIUI that is still our intent, and shouldn't be impeded by the >>> late-stage process, since that work should be editorial. >>> >>> > I have no idea what the status is with QPACK, but we should learn a >>> > lesson from the last time and make sure the fixed compression >>> > dictionary (if any) is based on traffic at more than one proxy or >>> > origin server. Or at least have each of the major deployments generate >>> > their local "best" encoding and do some cross-testing of the N choices >>> > (plus one or two based on a hand-crafted expert merge). >>> > >>> > I would like for HTTP/3 to have a mechanism for communicating metadata >>> > (like trailers) in mid-stream, both for requests (e.g., priority) and >>> > responses (e.g., chained sigs). That has been a design goal for HTTP >>> > since 1995 or so. HTTP/1.1 had it, albeit limited to chunked >>> extensions. >>> > It has been proposed multiple times and keeps getting postponed >>> > because of "concern about scope". This is not a semantics issue (they >>> > are just optional trailers that arrive early) -- it is a multiplex >>> > framing issue (a new frame type and expectation to process). >>> >>> Where are the multiple proposals you refer to? We've been working on h3 >>> now for more than three years. If you submit them now, they'll be design >>> issues. >>> >>> I'd say that the Late-Stage process (or at least the proposal of >>> adopting it) is working exactly as intended here -- making people realise >>> that if they still have issues / changes that they want discussed, they >>> need to bring them to our attention now, not as we go to WGLC. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>> >>>
- Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and Reco… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Ryan Hamilton
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham
- RE: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mike Bishop
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Ryan Hamilton
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham
- RE: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mike Bishop
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Ian Swett
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Martin Duke
- Re: Call for Consensus: Moving HTTP/3, QPACK and … Mark Nottingham