Re: Proposed response to the 3GPP Liaison Statement

"Martin Thomson" <mt@lowentropy.net> Thu, 31 October 2019 01:14 UTC

Return-Path: <mt@lowentropy.net>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36CB12006D for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 18:14:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.7
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=UiRLF6XR; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=awer+1Zb
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9AcWXTz903hp for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 18:14:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65BFA12006B for <quic@ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 18:14:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56BD2239D for <quic@ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:14:06 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:14:06 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=+/anGVrTY5kZWu984J/1dj0knpzdG14 MKxcHQnrBB24=; b=UiRLF6XRYoIM8ohCtAxIBUGPbeSFXit0TlGePbzJJDLYdEk 54HP4HM7VtTZGoYZ5dRo05xdQOoZ6y7mdUAI0EHm3E34Jn3mnGbJrwD9aT7Dyjof Mv9R1X0CbK4j3Tk8SRNoNICE9TZ8gOGgN3IJzREfcvUZeKlbjp96TKquVDNlvjqo VXLb4LRiCghlpxlk6JhPzGIVimqVKUglL7ATBCMxrB3TKZOSF3xQ38lsTZONryDQ iEmIeN265vQaIKhtlUCu+fNvnJR/1BenG8xizTfaYegj0fF0BTlouXZ3mjqV/WvS edafNC9edvY3/5JUa2KcNEtvuQkkighGyqjBFfw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=+/anGV rTY5kZWu984J/1dj0knpzdG14MKxcHQnrBB24=; b=awer+1Zb0g3PWiBw10YOH+ jynw1Z72r5HAudLD7kTEhxNJWA4LYQ62uXiUmgD894kq1Gp8GkDwml70fpzsl+mP C3FKttKc5vM/XYJGUqU2TPdd9mnErEa8LrEYdKoTHqh534RIlFRRjUVGJihUQhTd 88sbTY8YZSGZS74dmdQHnt3zH9IDxInZzVJ45ZTCu5qq10NiKkfY14VhGHxFw1Tt YJfL1yRrweZPfHMLNkBx9yPhPCfzxeWL0ytS/7Wd8UhMrW9wujRZhgSw7mVZ5VXm KqjZOBV0X7e63ElIx6/DOlloa9tI76ajlA2Lxx214UheafwhX+8deQd4sLIPB1fw ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:XjW6Xf2Gkvc47SiI3KOI8H_oEAoM0SK7GpT3QFCkOZfdC6_TIdMOlA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddtgedgfeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhephhhtthhpfedrihhnpdhivghtfh drohhrghenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidr nhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:XjW6XTm-RY6nUW-wxK79xFw9GNR89TliEYepx71ulBt_Ok8TcNoAdg> <xmx:XjW6XSmepyHpd9aHaL-RGy-RyLFyj8zMEbPFGWBGg0msCKT7zxK6Vg> <xmx:XjW6XSOtcUhMKJJcbst3JUrAheH03CJW-sAvNPyQfeuXGwM6GcKJqQ> <xmx:XjW6XUMn_UQz9rxF2UmE_3sRiFQbn0GPzUNvuAgJEjYwF5BJnAX9ig>
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 570CBE00A3; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:14:06 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-509-ge3ec61c-fmstable-20191030v1
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <5557f717-ae03-46a2-aa9f-54f019a07533@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <3218A80B-DAFD-43EF-8200-F99C660DF9C9@mnot.net>
References: <3218A80B-DAFD-43EF-8200-F99C660DF9C9@mnot.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:13:48 +1100
From: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: quic@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Proposed response to the 3GPP Liaison Statement
Content-Type: text/plain
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/Y0rJiJYi2yPgzoCBTsCIse0s_sY>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:14:09 -0000

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-path-signals-03 seems like it might be a helpful supporting document.

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019, at 12:09, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> QUIC WG participants,
> 
> Lars and I have discussed a response to this statement and plan on 
> sending the message below. If you have comments, please respond to this 
> e-mail by 6 November.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> ~~~
> Thank you for your input to our specifications.
> 
> Regarding the encryption of headers in addition to payload, this was a 
> conscious design decision by the Working Group. Transport header 
> encryption prevents modification by middleboxes, thereby avoiding 
> ossification of the protocol, and also makes traffic analysis more 
> difficult. The impact upon network operators was discussed extensively 
> as part of that decision.
> 
> Regarding the spin bit, we believe that your characterisation is correct.
> 
> Regarding packet loss measurements, QUIC does support them, but only by 
> the endpoints of communication -- not by third parties observing it. 
> Keys may be exported by one of the endpoints to allow decoding of 
> packet traces (e.g., with Wireshark), but that is not part of the QUIC 
> standard.
> 
> Regarding performance analysis, it would be helpful if you described 
> your use case in more detail. However, it's important to know that the 
> Working Group decided early on that QUICv1 would focus on the use case 
> of HTTP/3.
> 
> In turn, HTTP standardisation focuses primarily on the Web browsing use 
> case; while we acknowledge that there are other uses of the protocol, 
> and we accommodate them where possible, we cannot change the protocol 
> in ways that harms that use. Exposing transport metadata would likely 
> do so.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Mark Nottingham and Lars Eggert, QUIC Working Group chairs
> ~~~
> 
>