Re: Two Notable Ack Frequency Issues

Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> Mon, 13 September 2021 19:33 UTC

Return-Path: <prvs=88905646d7=fenix@fb.com>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7743A1720 for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.549
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fb.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OoApluKDgTRd for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:33:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx0a-00082601.pphosted.com (mx0a-00082601.pphosted.com [67.231.145.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D50043A171E for <quic@ietf.org>; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:33:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0109334.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00082601.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 18DH3qYj016272; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:33:31 -0700
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fb.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=facebook; bh=Wu5OuBqBWhF6HJ2WWzM0G41nLNAye2S1WDxSiJ33VFw=; b=QrXNER5BbvFb0AHnOS9C17RqI4c6l30G63kNdGug8ruooekFRDtiFJO/E3LonlWPnaBS La1H3WCVbQR5dUREcfenxoJ+ngzVZ6rB8cCwVjQ0cMZy+Bj8bTemFbMt/0uLufzq7uPG /TXxbcuLI1J0XYXVkBZoQi/XPsZtHDSqwvs=
Received: from maileast.thefacebook.com ([163.114.130.16]) by mx0a-00082601.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3b1xp353rk-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:33:31 -0700
Received: from NAM04-BN8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (100.104.31.183) by o365-in.thefacebook.com (100.104.36.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.14; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:33:29 -0700
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Gh8m9bQxkBkvw8y78QsS1PkSqBmvXwANK9pgmcWciaigw/7g1X62jfRW+7iIs5MrELGqFuUEvBrNVhkStT0el9J8+8sScSQ03oAQDy/abkR3YEdccyTKZA7v07iM4HOqavhXojeKb3GUkwbKJyn8fet6u+yQM4SZBU9HcKFczpzDGgU12UT4Yw7BGt3mDMWaJqKjzTT7kGjsI3Dpu2X+yTilrrlHNz73taY4mPrtgC5OWosb0YGs1Y+m5jrEeaTu4GQWfqFiPFMLdMppX4xjzbHPl2xqtQ3lIRcBtf/3YBUfSlGLsi/SZVvhat+2jP33V8Uuyofz4VmbmeMHDS4CEA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=Wu5OuBqBWhF6HJ2WWzM0G41nLNAye2S1WDxSiJ33VFw=; b=aOzPBAzdKmzwDB6nCPLH+AeHrHdtL0HUZvbWZQ6LwX9YJiOMCzgWoXNAB5ljoPGFplb/rCQS9T4u4MDsFHUjHHMhZzfcTzygmuNG4oi+rtJ6qJhdoXiq3ZL75EzmmO/H6oivbz99dk7QyklWuypj9FPY8IhOvoM3D7XRgnu55A2/xBmDQSvStyhkFU2OcV/3GcrB3AdjZkkcgSvBhLKBzteFaooE/+juI/hkl1z8YGtoPyuS0i+93Cn/042ekYud8OQDqVAUiyELzkNB0GyPURspvtQNRdWBMSzWxjf3rhg9uqhbmgzRJnICYEj08+DLuFfSuJq3dYXw064r+EW3mA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=fb.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=fb.com; dkim=pass header.d=fb.com; arc=none
Received: from MN2PR15MB2687.namprd15.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:129::15) by MN2PR15MB3375.namprd15.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:39::27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4500.17; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 19:33:29 +0000
Received: from MN2PR15MB2687.namprd15.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ddff:5ae0:194f:10e4]) by MN2PR15MB2687.namprd15.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ddff:5ae0:194f:10e4%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4500.019; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 19:33:29 +0000
From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Two Notable Ack Frequency Issues
Thread-Topic: Two Notable Ack Frequency Issues
Thread-Index: AQHXp2faqQFlxzWAAUmtFJuLHHK4vquhFb0AgAAOJgCAAAJKAIAAwh4A
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 19:33:29 +0000
Message-ID: <5021E5FE-F19E-44BA-BA50-F9807CF30FCB@fb.com>
References: <CAKcm_gPe_0E3Yje=qT07hC2uSt+srWT7EwbhiYNsPq8Q+pFFiw@mail.gmail.com> <d17cbbc0-a35c-45ba-afee-11e92b08b373@www.fastmail.com> <CADdTf+hWM6UCQZkSbKxN3KARLxGmASxBnEg8VAjb6=xSFNyWLA@mail.gmail.com> <2eff1b46-65cb-4822-a498-11357ac4cd23@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <2eff1b46-65cb-4822-a498-11357ac4cd23@www.fastmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.52.21080801
authentication-results: lowentropy.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;lowentropy.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=fb.com;
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 903680cf-95a2-433d-59a4-08d976ed5d33
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR15MB3375:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <MN2PR15MB33750F3B98254E180F667624CDD99@MN2PR15MB3375.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
x-fb-source: Internal
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR15MB2687.namprd15.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(64756008)(33656002)(66476007)(66446008)(66556008)(8936002)(2616005)(110136005)(66946007)(4744005)(122000001)(5660300002)(186003)(36756003)(26005)(86362001)(38100700002)(508600001)(76116006)(91956017)(6506007)(8676002)(2906002)(6486002)(316002)(66574015)(6512007)(71200400001)(38070700005)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <A42B1001D90EBC4B999BFEAA56E6DE23@namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR15MB2687.namprd15.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 903680cf-95a2-433d-59a4-08d976ed5d33
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Sep 2021 19:33:29.1609 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 8ae927fe-1255-47a7-a2af-5f3a069daaa2
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JO1Sok3Tupdg1LBK24W7WfuazAFnGQVcmSol7NvSwZxRDVkPQWn4R7orGqOSMsOw
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR15MB3375
X-OriginatorOrg: fb.com
X-Proofpoint-GUID: AI60KuicujAVzdHKExTnqRwzR-P-OSdC
X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: AI60KuicujAVzdHKExTnqRwzR-P-OSdC
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-13_09,2021-09-09_01,2020-04-07_01
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=fb_default_notspam policy=fb_default score=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=643 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109130117
X-FB-Internal: deliver
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/Z6NdD8iZbxiegzskTrNGqR6zJ2Y>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 19:33:38 -0000

Without ACKs, it seems difficult to do flow control and/or congestion control.
I'd be quite opposed to ditching ACKs unless it was extremely clear how to achieve a stable internet without it.
This is worthy of a fair bit of discussion that I've yet to see here.
-=R

´╗┐On 9/12/21, 5:59 PM, "QUIC on behalf of Martin Thomson" <quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:

    On Mon, Sep 13, 2021, at 10:50, Matt Joras wrote:
    > As for NO_ACK, I think it is best considered in the context of the 
    > related issue[2] in the DATAGRAM draft. 

    Tommy already said it:

    "Yes, I think having a new document with a problem statement and proposal would be best here."