Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about the multipath extension milestone
Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be> Wed, 30 September 2020 10:09 UTC
Return-Path: <olivier.bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0867C3A0B76 for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 03:09:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.313
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.313 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=uclouvain.be
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UuQVESzKnS56 for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 03:09:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db8eur05on2118.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.20.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A5D13A09F8 for <quic@ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 03:09:29 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=hU/w17kQCF6W5UG7V8iFOZ7Kcq4y9zxGzqEoPSp7DukNy2nGV6N1cLNS1afwz72p6XCm2EmKFj49vLAM/1KbaOrH7Mt1EgUprkEfcOY4tS+sVPAIfMAb2EpR1nxzRb7+k7ifYkp2MFMnjYEHvpzHQQ/MbIkbkydRJgFvTb6lMK6Gq/Vl6W/FAnpUdAzpC9oUSOaQbz8yWZI+ql83JhJU1+Byl+SUYhw74q1UGU6WbaWmHZpyA4Srp7A44ICu2nkhtNzxfiFv7uaRGVBri74s0oR6MTJYAMfhDDrcRkU0wP9vlDdMupi18mTIy7CqTt4Ly96lNiDCYb9xoA6jE+VWAQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=mkfz8k2ho1aXkmi+Qi1BiSLsJTk+WVx/AxNq46A3w7M=; b=Do65oVo5Kv6Wmbg1xFuKkJqvSOO3HL2hZoM7vzGuqYsXsg8uwfvP8czmLmK1pPlr0iSDPBCkyeyEiiuck8pCv0IYHuZw9g1ksED2lKfLPw5+zLNMt+dkGLZ03/klRoRUyaactZXdqSScpDyvFKYVOkmHz6Hhkt140IJBHKa7hPgdpTjUDsCfIDEIrP6uzcKg6x26ocbuVFUwS/6+bXeyRLBZwhqsSn+KYFK/7loZD6qIPOsgUxnboRYpPfpfD6Bh2OsCg/Zh/bvnQ6Pfxz7MGvgnC2o3Beoh2u1wUoMhJvOJb/FxLxT18QGPeOE6KXKojzNlumsM/1H3yv6ztKtfTA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=uclouvain.be; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=uclouvain.be; dkim=pass header.d=uclouvain.be; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uclouvain.be; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=mkfz8k2ho1aXkmi+Qi1BiSLsJTk+WVx/AxNq46A3w7M=; b=bhNdOiifPMlL9oe/nexzCSuvAFtqCyRDswWi98878COZs7PD5pKqArF1V1g8JlWciqDj8qMKSX6xaKKZxCg8a3cywDGAYvL67hfLC6538eCMjLI3zA0QU30A94GrdBX/dgT2L57HpKIE0txM6aoCG/enCICDkYTKzgmJj4/Gwsw=
Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=uclouvain.be;
Received: from AM7PR03MB6642.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:1bf::6) by AM6PR03MB5528.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:f1::29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3433.35; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 10:09:27 +0000
Received: from AM7PR03MB6642.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1cd6:a808:56a3:e868]) by AM7PR03MB6642.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1cd6:a808:56a3:e868%6]) with mapi id 15.20.3412.029; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 10:09:27 +0000
Reply-To: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be
Subject: Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about the multipath extension milestone
To: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
References: <F0A5E38D-4117-4729-BFF8-72D97CAA9908@eggert.org> <CAKKJt-e=+XLZhNWqaG9YSLTRqyQRvDc-dagUSkFwHOByFwZ++Q@mail.gmail.com> <78651438-2fce-ba67-4f44-4228bbc79a75@uclouvain.be> <CALGR9oYz5E=WufurF523r-+Yb4DGKweY5QZXnLHn318BXH8hGA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <d68e4b7b-868c-23c0-2e6a-deb051dec964@uclouvain.be>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 12:09:26 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0
In-Reply-To: <CALGR9oYz5E=WufurF523r-+Yb4DGKweY5QZXnLHn318BXH8hGA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Language: fr-classic
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-ClientProxiedBy: AM0PR10CA0028.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:208:17c::38) To AM7PR03MB6642.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:1bf::6)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from mbpobo.dhcp.info.ucl.ac.be (2001:6a8:308f:2:e98c:ad51:86a3:11b3) by AM0PR10CA0028.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:208:17c::38) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3412.23 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 10:09:27 +0000
X-Originating-IP: [2001:6a8:308f:2:e98c:ad51:86a3:11b3]
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 5606f5b7-b15e-4472-8131-08d86528e9ea
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM6PR03MB5528:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <AM6PR03MB552818A19D41C1A24A086C1486330@AM6PR03MB5528.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: SicDXPxuZNUCcQjV2elYC/83dfiJMMWDxC6SBlL6MbbXF5e6hJaQL0l7bMRD8j4jcYUxC/o/JPabayukf7GnDzc6Ubc1qFfDVMa0QL/ssWaL5hFi2yRum1Hws86dvlycEeNIjUKpEozDQXxhwi5Nu5CQ4QKNSrF7I4vn58H+4Iw0/6DP9jLrE8I3lfRfm9e4PluWv5oQXzN4VOWoazJ3l/Jwixs/lnDxkb0vhwtgtT6rNIQ8Mx1/xwbRsnZBflloAT1oqwqA+3wQXPgiSpBipZs9gYyiNhu5Z8pjPx50eNFlPrcX1oZI6RtsR7LuDu8x83apZOdzF67+8HtKOoLBbNYGQ4GE/Fgg8JpZOzr78agTnd0uiLvbjikU8lGkATqo
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:AM7PR03MB6642.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(366004)(136003)(396003)(346002)(39860400002)(3450700001)(54906003)(66476007)(2906002)(66556008)(66946007)(4326008)(8936002)(786003)(316002)(8676002)(478600001)(16526019)(6486002)(36756003)(6916009)(31696002)(86362001)(6506007)(5660300002)(6512007)(2616005)(52116002)(186003)(83380400001)(31686004)(66574015)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: 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
X-OriginatorOrg: uclouvain.be
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5606f5b7-b15e-4472-8131-08d86528e9ea
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM7PR03MB6642.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Sep 2020 10:09:27.1557 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 7ab090d4-fa2e-4ecf-bc7c-4127b4d582ec
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: DjQOlX9b5fz32Or6vdubHSAXaU2oBbAh89wbSA3aSM6qvzyJ6Vftf9Hpu4pZrqka4WAeZpCDBZ60T7tn/sRhZbyJ2ptDaLefHuzkkqCjb86TuQ7+GVzzp1dyFCt6Pj/d
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR03MB5528
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/ZtIAqGR6yV_fROuV6LrxUHJLl-E>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 10:09:36 -0000
Lucas, > > - The complexity involved in making decisions dynamically about > which > > path to send a given packet on (which could be a research topic, > given > > certain constraints and goals). > > The packet scheduling problem is a much simpler problem in multipath > transport protocol than congestion control. I would not consider > this as > a research topic given all the experience we have with MPTCP > > > As an individual and co-author on the Extensible Prioirties scheme for > HTTP, I am very interested to know how MP-QUIC scheduling would interact > with HTTP/3 servers doing HTTP prioiritization scheduling when handling > concurrent requests. Are you aware of work that has looked at this in > either MP-QUIC or MPTCP+HTTP/2? Is there clear improvement in web > browser KPIs, for instance? The work that I know is Robin Marx's work, but AFAIK he has not studied MPTCP or MPQUIC. Concerning prioritization, MPQUIC exposes streams like QUIC to the HTTP/3 application. It could be possible to expose some of the characteristics of MPQUIC to HTTP/3, but this is not required. MPTCP provides the same socket API to applications and enables them to work as if they were using TCP, except that they get better resilience and higher throughput for free. The same is true for MPQUIC. MPQUIC allows the application above to be resilient to handovers, lower performance on one path, and benefit from bandwidth aggregation when operating over low-speed networks, without having to deal with all these problems themselves. It is possible to expose some information from MPQUIC and the underlying paths to the application above, but I'm not convinced that this is really required. What worked well for Multipath TCP is the definition of policies that are used by the MPTCP implementation and relate to the deployment use case. Here are a few deployed examples : - on iPhones, some users (e.g. those with an unlimited data plan) want to use the best network interface - on iPhones, some users (e.g. those with a limited data plan) agree to use cellular when Wi-Fi becomes too bad. MPTCP measures the rtt and the timeouts and switches to cellular when performance decreases - in hybrid access networks, operators want to first use DSL before LTE. MPTCP fills the DSL pipe first and only uses LTE when DSL is fully used I think that MPQUIC deployments would also use similar policies. Olivier
- IETF Last Call for QUIC Lars Eggert
- Preparing for discussion on what to do about the … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Matt Joras
- RE:(2) Preparing for discussion on what to do abo… Madhan Raj Kanagarathinam
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Marten Seemann
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Multipath inside transport (was: Re: Preparing fo… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Robin MARX
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Ian Swett
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Martin Duke
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Ian Swett
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Christian Huitema
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Martin Thomson
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Composability of extensions (was: Re: Preparing f… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Composability of extensions (was: Re: Prepari… Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Martin Duke
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Christian Huitema
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Martin Duke
- Re: Composability of extensions (was: Re: Prepari… Christian Huitema
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Composability of extensions (was: Re: Prepari… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Christoph Paasch
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Matt Joras
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Christoph Paasch
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Christoph Paasch
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Ian Swett
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Matt Joras
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Jana Iyengar
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about … Tommy Pauly