Re: [Wish] [AVTCORE] Video ingest over QUIC

[Martin Duke <[e-mail]>]

This sounds like a side meeting that might lead to a BoF at 112?

On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 5:18 PM Lucas Pardue <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021, 19:36 Spencer Dawkins at IETF, <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
>> This is, of course, why ADs get paid the big bucks (ha!), but
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:10 PM Mike English <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>> I would personally be very interested in a "video over QUIC" working
>>> group or mailing list.
>>>
>>
>> Martin Thompson said (in a reply that, I think, only went to the QUIC
>> mailing list(*)) that he thought this was big enough to BOF (which doesn't
>> mean it shouldn't be discussed at DISPATCH at IETF 111), but does say
>> something about what a mailing list could be used for. Offhand, I can
>> imagine:
>>
>>    - discussion of the existing
>>    https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html draft
>>    - discussion of potential scope for a BOF proposal
>>    - discussion of proposed text for a BOF request
>>
>> Could I ask what the people who are expressing interest in a mailing list
>> are thinking about?
>>
>
> +1. Good questions.
>
> There seems to be some appetite for _something_ that doesn't fit in
> existing boxes. Defining exactly what might be would be a sensible step on
> the path to a BoF.
>
> Cheers,
> Lucas
>
>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Spencer
>>
>> (*) email is archived at
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/ocCm8E-GzP_pn4LBcJyKQeN7GRU/.
>>
>> The directness of this draft is perhaps what's most interesting to me.
>>> In particular, the absence of out-of-band signaling / session
>>> establishment stands in striking contrast with another UDP-based media
>>> ingest option: WebRTC.
>>>
>>> The signaling needed for session establishment (and the diversity of
>>> implementations for such signaling) has historically been a barrier for
>>> WebRTC adoption as an ingest protocol outside of the browser context.
>>> WISH-WG is working to improve that situation for WebRTC of course, but a
>>> new QUIC-based ingest protocol presents an opportunity to sidestep some of
>>> those known-issues by making an architectural decision up front about
>>> whether that style of session management is necessary in a video
>>> contribution workflow.
>>>
>>> I'm hoping others with more experience on these lists can speak to the
>>> history and tradeoffs associated with those approaches, but I just wanted
>>> to call attention to the aspect of the draft that seemed most notable to me
>>> as an operator of a low latency streaming platform where WebRTC egress and
>>> ingest capabilities are provided, but where RTMP is still the de facto
>>> ingest protocol of choice for many users.
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing this work!
>>> -Mike
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:32 PM Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=
>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Alan,
>>>>
>>>> Excited to see this draft!
>>>>
>>>> Since this isn't technically in scope for either avtcore, wish or quic
>>>> working groups, what would people think about making a new mailing list for
>>>> video over QUIC?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>  Victor.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 3:27 AM Justin Uberti <
>>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 1:35 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=
>>>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems like a good idea to me, unless there is a home that is already
>>>>>> well suited!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -=R
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From: *QUIC <[e-mail]> on behalf of Luke Curley <
>>>>>> [e-mail]>
>>>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 1:16 PM
>>>>>> *To: *Alan Frindell <afrind=[e-mail]>
>>>>>> *Cc: *"[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, Sergio Garcia Murillo <
>>>>>> [e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, "
>>>>>> [e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, Kirill Pugin <[e-mail]>
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Alan, thanks for publishing your protocol!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Twitch has also been working on a video over QUIC protocol, albeit
>>>>>> primarily for video distribution instead of contribution. We're very
>>>>>> interested in collaborating on RUSH and producing a new standard for live
>>>>>> streaming! Would there be broader interest in forming a video over QUIC
>>>>>> working group?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 12:04 PM Alan Frindell <afrind=
>>>>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sergio, thanks for your interest in the draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m interested in seeing a video ingest protocol standard that
>>>>>> leverages QUIC as a transport, has some partial reliability support, and is
>>>>>> less connection-oriented so that servers can go down for maintenance
>>>>>> without impacting ingest reliability or having arbitrarily long drain
>>>>>> times.  We published our RUSH draft to help kickstart the conversation but
>>>>>> we’re open to feedback and modifications if they help advance those goals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Alan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From: *Sergio Garcia Murillo <[e-mail]>
>>>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 9:02 AM
>>>>>> *To: *Alan Frindell <[e-mail]>
>>>>>> *Cc: *"[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>,
>>>>>> "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, Kirill Pugin <[e-mail]>
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Alan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that the correct place for discussing it is AVTCORE as
>>>>>> Bernard has indicated, as  WISH is not chartered to implement any new media
>>>>>> protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The draft is very interesting and I would be willing to collaborate,
>>>>>> what is your main interest? Do you want to try to publish it as it is or
>>>>>> would you be accepting feedback and include modifications?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sergio
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> El mar, 13 jul 2021 a las 17:37, Alan Frindell (<afrind=
>>>>>> [e-mail]>) escribió:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, for several years, Facebook has been using its own video ingest
>>>>>> protocol over QUIC from our apps to our infra.  While we’ve spoken about it
>>>>>> before, we just now published a draft documenting how it works:
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The protocol leverages the advantages of QUIC transport, and features
>>>>>> a partially reliable mode using only QUIC v1 RST_STREAM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We welcome your feedback
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Alan Frindell
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> [e-mail]
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>>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>