IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: Consensus call for adding support for non-ack eliciting DATAGRAMs

Vidhi Goel <vidhi_goel@apple.com> Wed, 08 September 2021 21:04 UTC

Return-Path: <vidhi_goel@apple.com>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7210F3A3862 for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:04:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.552
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mzVRFx0Q7c-8 for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:04:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [17.171.2.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 188573A2D98 for <quic@ietf.org>; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:04:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 188L31Rc005634; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:03:49 -0700
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=from : message-id : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : in-reply-to : cc : to : references; s=20180706; bh=k6jetmj98kssq95CfMMNT4K9CjecRQ+Chh2bgKh70Mc=; b=ILhtwdsuQOZdhMLx1TmDzzDwt6zVsgjr4wZMOS60EinPjtZSJ3JlIavRfr2Vxd9JL/D1 KfPcFWTMMKpaTfLhzVo2jo2WJjzJkfT/R03B7GPMaG9Sz5aQRZMhsyPFXJAYiaCY4Wnh 8Cx664M4iI2/YJMIYoU/DPVeNjtCs2lJaaua5LLnUg2GJFFRx4y7CLkXcnT4OGQWupCn LyZX4K4hAodVjmgyTnSBSbL1OYPAMM7Zzp1nvx6RjPtmtG+6ySBzaXDtzCTpedFEoE7X J0WA+V1MpKRaxjxL1O/Kcx2ZX+Oa9uHWyXowKZp2u7HDkNZiQJw8ROhWJ+ieDAhzVq7B 8g==
Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com with ESMTP id 3axcr616dn-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 08 Sep 2021 14:03:49 -0700
Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.17]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPS id <0QZ400IB2VUCOAD0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) id <0QZ400700VS17F00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Va-A:
X-Va-T-CD: 29ae4a34656450c18d41e2b559953e30
X-Va-E-CD: e16dc71c8fbc5cfc487b9fb93e5fbdf9
X-Va-R-CD: 5cc56b32c80ece1d22bba99f3d490b1e
X-Va-CD: 0
X-Va-ID: 3375f0c9-0976-4007-bae2-723e44de8d0b
X-V-A:
X-V-T-CD: 29ae4a34656450c18d41e2b559953e30
X-V-E-CD: e16dc71c8fbc5cfc487b9fb93e5fbdf9
X-V-R-CD: 5cc56b32c80ece1d22bba99f3d490b1e
X-V-CD: 0
X-V-ID: f3fef0cf-f2d1-4ca2-bbf2-5f3b44cbb6fb
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-08_09:2021-09-07, 2021-09-08 signatures=0
Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.11.188.106]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0QZ400W7YVUC1P00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vidhi Goel <vidhi_goel@apple.com>
Message-id: <983FFB12-E483-44D2-AB59-120A0531014A@apple.com>
Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D3F1AA0B-3807-403D-9CF1-8E9BFEED84F3"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg="sha-256"
MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.11\))
Subject: Re: Consensus call for adding support for non-ack eliciting DATAGRAMs
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 14:03:47 -0700
In-reply-to: <6D0139E9-C9C7-4CF8-ACF8-A44ACBA8DBBA@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Ryan Hamilton <rch=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
To: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
References: <CAJ_4DfQQLWSJO_0AEeYorDBBb4CmEccJNQDbHD9U7X3s0wUuPQ@mail.gmail.com> <6D0139E9-C9C7-4CF8-ACF8-A44ACBA8DBBA@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.11)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-08_09:2021-09-07, 2021-09-08 signatures=0
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/f88TcgTelg43rV7dXGxS9wJZSD0>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 21:04:08 -0000

> A small question to the editors, if this targets the general Internet - you probably have an answer, there are various possibilities -  how will this transport spec detect congestion, and what method will be used for congestion control?

Datagrams are ack-eliciting and would use the same (ACK-clocking) congestion control as other reliable frames in QUIC. In other words, the congestion control is a shared state for datagrams + other frames.

Thanks,
Vidhi

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 10:26 AM, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
> A small question to the editors, if this targets the general Internet - you probably have an answer, there are various possibilities -  how will this transport spec detect congestion, and what method will be used for congestion control?
> 
> Gorry
> 
>> On 8 Sep 2021, at 17:41, Ryan Hamilton <rch=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Well said, Ian and Martin. I agree that no change is the right outcome here.
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 8:53 AM Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>> Agreed, if we're going to do this, I'd like to address it in the ack frequency draft and not in datagram.  I also think there are valid use cases to not ACK stream data as well, such as Media over QUIC, where frames may not fit into a single QUIC packet.
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 8:22 AM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net <mailto:mt@lowentropy.net>> wrote:
>> No change is good.  It's nothing we can't fix trivially later if we find that was the wrong outcome.  And getting this right, even if it were needed, would be tricky. It's also not all that useful when you consider that ack frequency exists as a way to manage the cost and overhead of acknowledgments.
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2021, at 21:31, Lucas Pardue wrote:
>> > Hello QUIC WG,
>> > 
>> > This is a consensus call for datagram issue #42 [1] - Allow a Sender to 
>> > Control Datagram ACKs. The proposed resolution is to close this issue 
>> > with no action.
>> > 
>> > If you object to the proposal, please do so on the issue or in response 
>> > to this message. 
>> > 
>> > The call will run for one week, closing at end of day on September 15 
>> > 2021, anywhere on earth.
>> > 
>> > [1] https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/issues/42 <https://github.com/quicwg/datagram/issues/42>
>>

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email