Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com> Tue, 06 February 2018 23:58 UTC
Return-Path: <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A3F124BAC for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:58:42 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lxQK7oF5PUrW for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:58:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-pg0-x22a.google.com (mail-pg0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88845127871 for <quic@ietf.org>; Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:58:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-pg0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id x25so1781912pge.3 for <quic@ietf.org>; Tue, 06 Feb 2018 15:58:39 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=s2DZmeWJhrDP8C6lqmxQk6SNLmOM/WoLhuSZ/UoAJsg=; b=n5gvNDeRUI0aGtKi00tGYugK4xn7vtwrhKoSTuv04ZQiiBQP/9HKnA777pa0d7/lgk nvBU3Lb0iREJKkIHjkzP8xfQmLeLdwcgNUPAA940i4fYTZM51f7X9cVCfQ2pTLmEyLW+ OwiePUcznci8Z4SMujwcs/qLKLct5DxmAMNMmfIoyMnVqt1OfydgGe+nEO+CxAhw6bzA oqDUYJoj2kKg986B1o9FlIBVNS5EFFtEHDudLHksSiL8snew79hgg+U84boUzZkcxleU pfs8NVdPuEueYGG0pnVwB+16JBXmFUN4fwGm88dlYovZai5Iy5FBKzP0eu+VEpviAIHV 8Cow==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:thread-topic:thread-index :date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language :content-language:mime-version; bh=s2DZmeWJhrDP8C6lqmxQk6SNLmOM/WoLhuSZ/UoAJsg=; b=q649Gk8LwxJT2FDobPZKnzB5nk1A2TxPC4MtbDI+G6KPW9P+tPEArLFmrIThhajrmm fhUYa1F14mx3mLAUHZMUlv8Cil8eVhROD0h3uUD8XlW4xx5MUJNaP1AdBDfw/2sDz9y0 owTnyaPcU9sgeyPOMRziqafGGjJkDvuCmvxESFx6YtPwlLudUGqE+j4W7GUGWfJ2D9U8 SE/4rQoLdb5Cc/WqH/G0zL2MDpycdwjgi2myb7voPfRxdowb/DacdYQnuGFxrH5SAkxn TeOo38bKaEbelBWSTAJUiT03PpH2wdezIS84czGIxxIALSxdBXS7rkNmfBY2L8uJb6b4 zcjw==
X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPAv2TeEvTfYFSZHOLukWkl1t6ZWxQVjB8if76wAk1Iybo0qOCgs VOOC8O2DMLTUw8AF5+r0/UI=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x225x/c6b5BHqA/PGrTmpYAylKdEuhu2ZzduKWPJ/39yb815jeYBxG0q/A2LDsASA6oiDD7/KlA==
X-Received: by 10.99.142.66 with SMTP id k63mr3243372pge.278.1517961519156; Tue, 06 Feb 2018 15:58:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from DB6PR10MB1766.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([40.101.73.69]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b84sm295490pfj.11.2018.02.06.15.58.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Feb 2018 15:58:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
CC: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Topic: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Index: AQHTn1cqSR45mit5E0WzVadd6SuPAaOXdfgAgAAYvoCAAH9ldw==
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 2
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 23:58:33 +0000
Message-ID: <DB6PR10MB17661B9957DF90733FA28EC5ACFD0@DB6PR10MB1766.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <BY2PR15MB07754D83A1721F2BD742359BCDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <2CD9DC43-D69B-43F0-8474-DFE798850A52@akamai.com> <CAGD1bZaUuNxqpDkn62B0wWcFD8=mCUWrAwWGG-rAOxH7Mf1=cQ@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB01334E30C7AF6AE75F58EEFDB6FE0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAGD1bZaxrqzdkk0wxRaULwOTgg6wnrSrXNBK31s4uxdozaACBA@mail.gmail.com> <CAGD1bZbOAaSBcQw4nVtGuwRunaAW8MYHq9yPxNN6DdKHzt5HtQ@mail.gmail.com> <CANatvzx+uDHMV5XS=OuVYBqe_RYX=EmVWAmjuONS8BpNYCPweA@mail.gmail.com> <5233815B-00F3-4961-ABB8-505906258B89@trammell.ch> <CAN1APdcuKSLYw4Odyc4g=+4_+ojsNekeqmM9eYqxykkfxRx3Cg@mail.gmail.com>, <CANatvzz3rmGPRgu1Z5+bAHhgjiN3L5OVTDhb4fmpPX+M8o4z3w@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CANatvzz3rmGPRgu1Z5+bAHhgjiN3L5OVTDhb4fmpPX+M8o4z3w@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB6PR10MB17661B9957DF90733FA28EC5ACFD0DB6PR10MB1766EURP_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/XhjUJtMjYILixJBbcepbRMouIoU>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 23:58:42 -0000
I actually think a static 1KB table of Pi could work quite well. A subset of samples could be indexed in a hashtable and yield loss data early with some probability. Some samples would miss due to reordering or loss. If more exact analysis is wanted the levenshtein distance of a sample sequence against Pi from a synced offset would tell a lot about the data. Or DNA sequencing. This could be hardware optimized. Yet, transmission is always just the next bit in the Pi table. Since Pi is effectively random it will ebentually detect mutations if the observed sequence is long enough. Wrt privacy, the CID may be used as a start offset hash into the Pi table. There isn't any need to cover a full RTT worth of Pi bits unless it is used for latency detection, but in that case the spin could be a pattern like 10101010 and 00001111 injected into the Pi sequence. A separate spin bit would be simpler. ________________________________ From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:22:35 PM To: Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption) 2018-02-06 23:54 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>: > This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use > multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration. For > example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be > encoded as 0011 over four packets. > If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in the > pulse. That's definitely an option. Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the error among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square wave. The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is that it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with the length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit (counting from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for a moment). -- Kazuho Oku
- Packet number encryption Martin Thomson
- Re: Packet number encryption Ian Swett
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Eric Rescorla
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- Re: Packet number encryption Martin Thomson
- Re: Packet number encryption Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Packet number encryption Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Eggert, Lars
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Martin Thomson
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Martin Thomson
- Re: Packet number encryption Roberto Peon
- Re: Packet number encryption Martin Thomson
- Re: Packet number encryption Ted Hardie
- Re: Packet number encryption Ted Hardie
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- Re: Packet number encryption Roberto Peon
- Re: Packet number encryption Martin Thomson
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- Re: Packet number encryption Jana Iyengar
- RE: Packet number encryption Roni Even (A)
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Roberto Peon
- Re: Packet number encryption Roberto Peon
- Re: Packet number encryption Martin Duke
- Re: Packet number encryption Kazuho Oku
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Packet number encryption Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Packet number encryption Kazuho Oku
- Re: Packet number encryption Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)
- Re: Packet number encryption Jana Iyengar
- RE: Packet number encryption Piotr Galecki
- Re: Re: Packet number encryption alexandre.ferrieux
- Re: Packet number encryption Patrick McManus
- Re: Packet number encryption Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)
- Re: Packet number encryption Stephen Farrell
- Re: Packet number encryption Roberto Peon
- RE: Packet number encryption Piotr Galecki
- RE: Packet number encryption Roni Even (A)
- RE: Packet number encryption Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Packet number encryption Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- RE: Packet number encryption Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Packet number encryption Stephen Farrell
- Re: Packet number encryption Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)
- Re: Packet number encryption Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)
- Re: Packet number encryption Stephen Farrell
- Re: Packet number encryption Willy Tarreau
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Reducing ossification through protocol design (wa… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Roberto Peon
- Re: Packet number encryption Roberto Peon
- Re: Packet number encryption Salz, Rich
- Re: Packet number encryption Jana Iyengar
- RE: Packet number encryption Roni Even
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- RE: Packet number encryption Roni Even (A)
- Re: Packet number encryption Roberto Peon
- Re: Reducing ossification through protocol design… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Kazuho Oku
- RE: Packet number encryption Roni Even (A)
- Re: Reducing ossification through protocol design… Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Reducing ossification through protocol design… Salz, Rich
- Re: Reducing ossification through protocol design… Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Mike Bishop
- RE: Reducing ossification through protocol design… Mike Bishop
- Re: Packet number encryption Jana Iyengar
- Re: Packet number encryption Jana Iyengar
- Re: Packet number encryption Martin Thomson
- Re: Packet number encryption Ted Hardie
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Marten Seemann
- RE: Packet number encryption Roni Even (A)
- Re: Packet number encryption Marten Seemann
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Packet number encryption Kazuho Oku
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Gorry Fairhurst
- Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (wa… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (wa… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Roni Even (A)
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Stephen Farrell
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Kazuho Oku
- RE: Packet number encryption Mike Bishop
- Re: Packet number encryption Jana Iyengar
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Eric Rescorla
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Ian Swett
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Martin Thomson
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- Re: Packet number encryption Marten Seemann
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Martin Thomson
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Packet number encryption Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Christian Huitema
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Christian Huitema
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Packet number encryption Victor Vasiliev
- Re: Packet number encryption Salz, Rich
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Mike Bishop
- Re: Packet number encryption Christian Huitema
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Mike Bishop
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Salz, Rich
- Re: Packet number encryption Eric Rescorla
- Re: Packet number encryption Eric Rescorla
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Eric Rescorla
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Ian Swett
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Salz, Rich
- Re: Packet number encryption Ian Swett
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption David Benjamin
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Deval, Manasi
- RE: Packet number encryption Deval, Manasi
- Re: Packet number encryption Victor Vasiliev
- RE: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: hardware offload (was: Packet number encrypti… Ian Swett
- Re: Packet number encryption Ian Swett
- Re: Packet number encryption Martin Thomson
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Salz, Rich
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: hardware offload (was: Packet number encrypti… Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: Packet number encryption Salz, Rich
- RE: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Victor Vasiliev
- Re: hardware offload (was: Packet number encrypti… Christian Huitema
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: hardware offload (was: Packet number encrypti… Eggert, Lars
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: hardware offload (was: Packet number encrypti… Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Praveen Balasubramanian
- RE: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Victor Vasiliev
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Kazuho Oku
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Packet number encryption Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen