Re: Fwd: WG Review: QUIC (quic)

Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> Wed, 12 February 2020 10:03 UTC

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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, "spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "quic-chairs@ietf.org" <quic-chairs@ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: WG Review: QUIC (quic)
Thread-Topic: Fwd: WG Review: QUIC (quic)
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Hi Spencer,


Thanks for the comments. Please see inline. 

QUIC (quic)
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Current status: Active WG
> > 
> > Chairs:
> >   Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
> >   Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
> >   Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
> > 
> > Assigned Area Director:
> >   Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
> > 
> > Transport Area Directors:
> >   Mirja Kühlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
> >   Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
> > 
> > Mailing list:
> >   Address: quic@ietf.org
> >   To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic
> >   Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/
> > 
> > Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/quic/
> > 
> > Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/
> > 
> > The QUIC working group will provide standards-track specifications for a
> > UDP-based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transport protocol, based on
> > pre-standardization implementation and deployment experience.
> > 
> > Key goals for QUIC are:
> 
> I'm wondering when these change from goals to attributes, but maybe the next
> major revision is the right time ...

Yes, I think the next version is the time to rework the whole charter. 


>  
> >  - Minimizing connection establishment and overall transport latency for
> >  applications, starting with HTTP;
> > 
> >  - Providing multiplexing without head-of-line blocking;
> > 
> >  - Requiring only changes to path endpoints to enable deployment;
> > 
> >  - Enabling multipath and forward error correction extensions; and
> > 
> >  - Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1.3 by default.
> > 
> > The work of the group will have five main focus areas, corresponding to five
> > core deliverables.
> > 
> > The first of these is the core transport work, which will describe the wire
> 
> I wonder when the charter moves from future tense (which was accurate in 2016)
> to present tense, but perhaps after version 1 is complete would be a good
> time. 

As the first version work still is ongoing I think the natural phase to change
the tempus will be in the next recharter when we actually have a first version
of the protocol. 

>  
> > format, along with the mechanisms for connection establishment, stream
> > multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection and recovery, congestion
> > control, and options negotiation. Work on congestion control will describe
> > use of a standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for QUIC.
> > Defining new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of scope for this
> > group. QUIC is expected to support rapid, distributed development and
> > testing
> > of features.
> > 
> > The second of these focus areas is security. This work will describe how the
> > protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and will also describe how those
> > keys are used to provide confidentiality and integrity protection of both
> > application data and QUIC headers. This work will ensure that QUIC has
> > security and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack
> > composed
> > of TLS 1.3 using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath).
> > 
> > The third focus area describes the mapping between the HTTP application
> > protocol and the transport facilities of QUIC. This mapping will have
> > performance characteristics comparable with HTTP/2, and provide extension
> > mechanisms similar to HTTP/2. Upon completion of this mapping, work to
> > define
> > additional mappings may be included by updates to this charter, or may be
> > worked on by other working groups.
> 
> When QUIC was chartered, my hope (and I don't think I was the only one) was
> that we would end up with HTTP/2 over QUIC. For good reasons, we ended up with
> HTTP/3 over QUIC, and it seems odd that there's no mention of HTTP/3 in the
> 2020 QUIC charter, but it IS mentioned in 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-httpbis/. 

As you might have noticed there have been some changes to not be specific saying
HTTP/2 which is no longer correct with the choice to go on to define HTTP/3. The
easier fix rather than trying to define what HTTP/3 is in detail, instead we
have chosen to describe it simply as a mapping of the HTTP semantics onto the
QUIC protocol. This makes the ongoing work to be in charter. 

So are you primarily concerned that we are not explicitly saying that the HTTP
sematinc mapping on QUIC is called HTTP/3? Or is it that we don't define what
HTTP/3 is from a work scope perspective more detailed? 

>  
> > The fourth focus area will be on extensions to core protocol facilities, to
> > enable datagram delivery, version negotiation, and multipath capabilities.
> > Other extensions are out of the scope of this charter.
> > 
> > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability
> > Statement, describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely
> > used, and describing deployment and manageability implications of the
> > protocol. Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance on how to
> > handle QUIC traffic in load balancers.
> > 
> > Current practices for network management of transport protocols include the
> > ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), hashing of flows for equal-
> > cost
> > multipath routing (ECMP), directional signaling of flows, signaling of flow
> > setup and teardown, and the ability to export information about flows for
> > accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need not be defined to enable each of
> > these abilities, or enable them in the same way as they are enabled by TCP
> > when used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must consider the impact of
> > the
> > protocol on network management practices, reflecting the tensions described
> > in RFC 7258.
> > 
> > Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current protocol
> > mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, because
> > something is in the initial document set does not imply that there is
> > consensus around the feature or around how it is specified.
> 
> This paragraph ^ was inserted to say "the way Google QUIC happens to work in
> 2016" (which was the only QUIC we had) "isn't binding on the working group
> producing IETF QUIC". That was worth saying in 2016 - and we might have said
> it more clearly - but in 2020, the obvious meaning of "current protocol
> mechanisms" is IETF QUICv1. I don't think this paragraph means anything
> helpful now, and anyone who tries to be guided by it, is probably headed into
> the weeds. I'd delete it. 

Yes, I agree that it is reasonable to remove it without any impact to the WG way
of working. 

>  
> > The QUIC working group will work closely with the HTTPbis working group,
> > especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP.
> > 
> > Milestones:
> > 
> >   Jul 2020 - Core Protocol document to IESG
> > 
> >   Jul 2020 - Loss detection and Congestion Control document to IESG
> > 
> >   Jul 2020 - TLS 1.3 Mapping document to IESG
> > 
> >   Jul 2020 - HTTP/2 mapping document to IESG
> > 
> >   Jul 2020 - QUIC Applicability and Manageability Statement to IESG
> 
> Just making sure I understand - the load balancing advice would be included in
> this statement, is that right? 

Yes, or we add an additional milestone if this is a seperate document. It is not
100% clear, and I am happy to leave this to the WG. 

> 
> >   Jul 2020 - Version-Independent Properties of QUIC to IESG
> > 
> >   Jul 2020 - QPACK: Header Compression for HTTP over QUIC to IESG
> > 
> >   Dec 2020 - Working group adoption of Multipath extension document
> > 
> >   Mar 2021 - Datagram Extension to IESG
> > 
> >   Mar 2021 - Version Negotiation Extension to IESG
> > 
> >   Dec 2021 - Multipath extension document to IESG
> > 
> > 


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund 


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