Re: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-v2-00.txt

Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com> Fri, 23 April 2021 12:30 UTC

Return-Path: <martenseemann@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F67C3A1B71 for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 05:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6colMpws5ZWn for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 05:29:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2F7D3A1B70 for <quic@ietf.org>; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 05:29:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id i16-20020a9d68d00000b0290286edfdfe9eso34514745oto.3 for <quic@ietf.org>; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 05:29:58 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2AXjWuIjuKS0Rq5JhvEN163/Ah1RMsG6ub4tlutlokU=; b=mj1bCRErvL3apUnj+KBxbDGoWz1nTcCF1dqOEd+3snXMHSfGlcFZDB96xnCZhZpsBZ mUmFrFulfEBfZuYzARXBt3XZrYSWcvC4foFBGBP5CgJMS/Pi/BaAecF8xTXutqU1fGgk rPyIoIq1iHby0K+XMVvcz9fNvcbmhu/crFbBsDwkQnxHsr7YzcXiSxMkFMCAazyWDPGb tQemSicKwsxlygBw6CUvoduNMpsE075YbqjbOU6QKD9EmV/jjMhMIz0kvgghWSkgmZf/ 3Ci58eODGs0qrm8ts8xlsBAGVbi/kz0FYTItRCDQfRwIAi5J0/eEXa6OheH1Qm4k8sx2 auOQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2AXjWuIjuKS0Rq5JhvEN163/Ah1RMsG6ub4tlutlokU=; b=Zwe0i+B+FTz376yYboHCHNFqhWytBXBz9wYgwJGiwn1C90CzuEyF7eW+eKvdy51Dug z7K/7vzOxgXTq2MmBVtOwzLbUWTtmNO4soowVDTvj/GnN8LYeS3FC9NvbEPQNd3EBm0l zsjYQYlE69jIioKGwYYtM2HvvVVuNQVjDNMGOfVJBNvwWYjfQK3luuGoV7ndhPlGir9d 6XK/0SZaQXP+63jfUbUtHdn9dvRJB4mgsJp5uerB5dBgOHSjLRf8zAlwINembbP81xMK 0/g0WrCgOfEJBKy2TARdCbOtnXAiH+U4xDPR8cvUuExahFhlSzYH8sDLe6LdXAP7b0wt wWwA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532SvphZyvU8VVdUG/5AzB6n55yO9lpVwZrFFQ7moQ1lG7GwOWAF MvlAOpA9J0VF0z/+rULvqJsoMISiFWnA4pAH8qI=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwqsUPCFnoL4pvxMVwJuf2PlMvplp5IfFNPo+ZGPyED3IjHHcWQg994Ny9kbSnEceTRqACcBlK4wRjZjv4m5k=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:104a:: with SMTP id b10mr3218893otp.181.1619180997454; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 05:29:57 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <161911211931.14837.5258716888014139826@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAM4esxQqjy6WC_6xo8c27qX_CFoyrGW=CMc-od-pmijkuptOCw@mail.gmail.com> <CALGR9oYewRHFgKYm8eyxQyB=HU7afsm2XFR3YPGW4RD6bQYysQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAM4esxQes0NBv3_o8LqH7ozrg1_i_VMpzS30c-MyNtHg6n6vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAM4esxQes0NBv3_o8LqH7ozrg1_i_VMpzS30c-MyNtHg6n6vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 19:29:47 +0700
Message-ID: <CAOYVs2pgJmtetCifvtT_9MQes9f57w9=oCdNLGFHcTGJSU1OTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-v2-00.txt
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002e2f8505c0a2f4d3"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/jEENZ5EU8gc5QKlleLlTK7Sukb8>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 12:30:04 -0000

Hi Martin,

Thanks for writing this up. If there's interest in deploying v1 and v2 at
the same time, we could scratch the requirement to implement the version
negotiation draft. This would open us up to version "downgrade" attacks,
but given that the two versions have identical security properties (by
design), do we actually care?

On the other hand, I'm not sure if deploying v2 right now would actually
help prevent ossification. Middleboxes are already used to seeing multiple
QUIC versions on the wire, since we have quite broad deployment of draft
versions, and some people controlling both endpoints are even using private
version numbers. One might argue that the one thing that will actually
prevent ossification won't be shipping one v2, but only proper greasing of
the field, e.g. by implementing some variant of your version alias draft.

Regards,
Marten

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 1:22 AM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Lucas,
>
> That's a great question that I hadn't considered.
>
> The answer depends on what the WG does with the scope of this, and how VN
> evolves.
>
> 1. If it turns out there are some useful v1 patches we want to land here,
> then there will be some churn.
> 2. The VN design is baked into v2, and that is not stable yet. While "v2"
> might never change, an implementation that advertises v2 may in fact
> instantiate non-interoperable VN designs that should not be aggregated into
> a single version codepoint (though I'd have to think through how to
> negotiate through mutating VN designs; I have probably made a conceptual
> error here). In fact this draft is probably a necessary component to doing
> proper implementation and testing of compatible VN (unless people keep the
> draft versions around).
>
> IMO if this gets to the point of implementation, it would be wise to use
> experimental versions until it progresses to RFC. I filed an issue to fix
> this: https://github.com/martinduke/draft-duke-quic-v2/issues/1
>
> Thanks,
> Martin
>
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 11:07 AM Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> Thanks for writing this up.
>>
>> Speaking as an individual, I have some naive questions. Is this document
>> so trivial that it would never change between revisions? Or is there a risk
>> that something like initial salt in there might need to rev? To rephrase,
>> would the document be better off starting with a different QUIC version
>> value before interoperability discovers a problem and we've blown that code
>> point? We can always develop such a document with a target code point in
>> mind for use if the doc were to get adopted and run through all due process.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Lucas
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 6:52 PM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello QUIC,
>>>
>>> I believe it was MT that threatened to do this a long time ago, but to
>>> work through compatible version negotiation I wrote up a trivial QUICv2
>>> (below) that just changes the initial salts. This caused me to figure out a
>>> couple of things about VN that may have been obvious to others but not to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> TL;DR we made the right decision to keep both in the draft.
>>>
>>> 1. One very possible world is one where firewalls ossify on expecting v1
>>> in the first packet, but don't care about subsequent packets. Compatible VN
>>> is well-designed for this world, as Client Initials (and 0RTT, sadly) can
>>> be v1 essentially forever and subsequent packets can be whatever we want.
>>>
>>> 2. If all versions are compatible, choice of VN method is essentially up
>>> to the client, but not quite deterministically: it can pick either a likely
>>> supported version or an unlikely one. If unlikely, the server will either
>>> accept it or send a VN. If likely, the server MUST use compatible VN to
>>> change the version, since it can't send a VN packet that contains the
>>> initial version unless it doesn't have full support for it.
>>>
>>> Anyway, this v2 draft is available for your consideration if people want
>>> to quickly iterate a new version, and/or we need a vehicle for fixes to v1.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>> Date: Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 10:22 AM
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-v2-00.txt
>>> To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-duke-quic-v2-00.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Martin Duke and posted to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>
>>> Name:           draft-duke-quic-v2
>>> Revision:       00
>>> Title:          QUIC Version 2
>>> Document date:  2021-04-22
>>> Group:          Individual Submission
>>> Pages:          5
>>> URL:
>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-duke-quic-v2-00.txt
>>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-v2/
>>> Html:
>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-duke-quic-v2-00.html
>>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duke-quic-v2-00
>>>
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>    This document specifies QUIC version 2, which is identical to QUIC
>>>    version 1 except for some trivial details.  Its purpose is to combat
>>>    various ossification vectors and exercise the version negotiation
>>>    framework.  Over time, it may also serve as a vehicle for needed
>>>    protocol design changes.
>>>
>>>    Discussion of this work is encouraged to happen on the QUIC IETF
>>>    mailing list quic@ietf.org or on the GitHub repository which contains
>>>    the draft: https://github.com/martinduke/draft-duke-quic-v2.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>>> submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>
>>>
>>>