Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Tue, 06 March 2018 01:59 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 17:58:46 -0800
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Subject: Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote: > Thanks for the proposal, EKR. We'll track this as < > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1165>. > > Since we're trying to nail down the invariants in London (or soon > afterwards), I'd like to figure out the WG's feelings on this pretty > quickly. > > I know folks need a chance to read and digest, but it would be extremely > helpful if we could have some initial discussion on-list now. Please focus > on the technical merit of the proposal, clarifying questions, and > statements of support/lack thereof. > > Assuming it's still a topic of interest in two weeks, we'll schedule some > time to discuss it in London. EKR, could you please submit a presentation > (say, max 20 minutes, plus discussion time afterwards) ASAP? > Willdo. It would be especially helpful to have clarifying questions soonish so that I can either clarify them on-list, or know to hit them in the preso. -Ekr > > Cheers, > > > > On 6 Mar 2018, at 10:05 am, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > > > > Hi folks, > > > > Sorry to be the one randomizing things again, but the asymmetric > > conn-id thing went well, so here goes.... > > > > TL;DR. > > I'd like to discuss refactoring things to run QUIC over DTLS. > > > > DETAILS > > When we originally designed the interaction between TLS and QUIC, > > there seemed like a lot of advantages to embedding the crypto > > handshake on stream 0, in particular the ability to share a common > > reliability and congestion mechanism. However, as we've gotten further > > along in design and implementation, it's also become clear that it's > > archictecturally kind of crufty and this creates a bunch of problems, > > including: > > > > * Stream 0 is unencrypted at the beginning of the connection, but > > encrypted after the handshake completes, and you still need > > to service it. > > > > * Retransmission of stream 0 frames from lost packets needs special > > handling to avoid accidentally encrypting them. > > > > * Stream 0 is not subject to flow control; it can exceed limits and > > goes into negative credit after the handshake completes. > > > > * There are complicated rules about which packets can ACK other > > packets, as both cleartext and ciphertext ACKs are possible. > > > > * Very tight coupling between the crypto stack and the transport > > stack, especially in terms of knowing where you are in the > > crypto state machine. > > > > I've been looking at an alternative design in which we instead adopt a > > more natural layering of putting QUIC on top of DTLS. The basic > > intuition is that you do a DTLS handshake and just put QUIC frames > > directly in DTLS records (rather than QUIC packets). This > > significantly reduces the degree of entanglement between the two > > components and removes the corner cases above, as well as just > > generally being a more conventional architecture. Of course, no design > > is perfect, but on balance, I think this is a cleaner structure. > > > > I have a draft for this at: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rescorla-quic-over-dtls/ > > > > And a partial implementation of it in Minq at: > > > > Mint: https://github.com/ekr/mint/tree/dtls_for_quic > > Minq: https://github.com/ekr/minq/tree/quic_over_dtls > > > > > > I can't speak for anyone else's implementation, but at least in my > > case, the result was considerable simplification. > > > > It's natural at this point to say that this is coming late in the > > process after we have a lot invested in the current design, as well as > > to worry that it will delay the process. That's not my intention, and > > as I say in the draft, many of the issues we have struggled over > > (headers especially) can be directly ported into this architecture (or > > perhaps just reused with QUIC-over-DTLS while letting ordinary DTLS do > > its thing) and this change would allow us to sidestep issued we are > > still fighting with, so on balance I believe we can keep the schedule > > impact contained. > > > > We are designing a protocol that will be used long into the future, so > > having the right architecture is especially important. Our goal has > > always been to guide this effort by implementation experience and we > > are learning about the deficiencies of the Stream 0 design as we go > > down our current path. If the primary concern to this proposal is > > schedule we should have an explicit discussion about those relative > > priorities in the context of the pros and cons of the proposal. > > > > The hackathon would be a good opportunity to have a face to face chat > > about this in addition to on-list discussion. > > > > Thanks in advance for taking a look, > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > >
- Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Salz, Rich
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ian Swett
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Subodh Iyengar
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Marten Seemann
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Patrick McManus
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eggert, Lars
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Roberto Peon
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mike Bishop
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Victor Vasiliev
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Subodh Iyengar
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Martin Duke
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christopher Wood
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Leif Hedstrom
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Gabriel Montenegro
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Philipp S. Tiesel
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla