Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS
Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Tue, 06 March 2018 01:46 UTC
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Subject: Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 12:46:16 +1100
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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Thanks for the proposal, EKR. We'll track this as <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1165>. Since we're trying to nail down the invariants in London (or soon afterwards), I'd like to figure out the WG's feelings on this pretty quickly. I know folks need a chance to read and digest, but it would be extremely helpful if we could have some initial discussion on-list now. Please focus on the technical merit of the proposal, clarifying questions, and statements of support/lack thereof. Assuming it's still a topic of interest in two weeks, we'll schedule some time to discuss it in London. EKR, could you please submit a presentation (say, max 20 minutes, plus discussion time afterwards) ASAP? Cheers, > On 6 Mar 2018, at 10:05 am, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Sorry to be the one randomizing things again, but the asymmetric > conn-id thing went well, so here goes.... > > TL;DR. > I'd like to discuss refactoring things to run QUIC over DTLS. > > DETAILS > When we originally designed the interaction between TLS and QUIC, > there seemed like a lot of advantages to embedding the crypto > handshake on stream 0, in particular the ability to share a common > reliability and congestion mechanism. However, as we've gotten further > along in design and implementation, it's also become clear that it's > archictecturally kind of crufty and this creates a bunch of problems, > including: > > * Stream 0 is unencrypted at the beginning of the connection, but > encrypted after the handshake completes, and you still need > to service it. > > * Retransmission of stream 0 frames from lost packets needs special > handling to avoid accidentally encrypting them. > > * Stream 0 is not subject to flow control; it can exceed limits and > goes into negative credit after the handshake completes. > > * There are complicated rules about which packets can ACK other > packets, as both cleartext and ciphertext ACKs are possible. > > * Very tight coupling between the crypto stack and the transport > stack, especially in terms of knowing where you are in the > crypto state machine. > > I've been looking at an alternative design in which we instead adopt a > more natural layering of putting QUIC on top of DTLS. The basic > intuition is that you do a DTLS handshake and just put QUIC frames > directly in DTLS records (rather than QUIC packets). This > significantly reduces the degree of entanglement between the two > components and removes the corner cases above, as well as just > generally being a more conventional architecture. Of course, no design > is perfect, but on balance, I think this is a cleaner structure. > > I have a draft for this at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rescorla-quic-over-dtls/ > > And a partial implementation of it in Minq at: > > Mint: https://github.com/ekr/mint/tree/dtls_for_quic > Minq: https://github.com/ekr/minq/tree/quic_over_dtls > > > I can't speak for anyone else's implementation, but at least in my > case, the result was considerable simplification. > > It's natural at this point to say that this is coming late in the > process after we have a lot invested in the current design, as well as > to worry that it will delay the process. That's not my intention, and > as I say in the draft, many of the issues we have struggled over > (headers especially) can be directly ported into this architecture (or > perhaps just reused with QUIC-over-DTLS while letting ordinary DTLS do > its thing) and this change would allow us to sidestep issued we are > still fighting with, so on balance I believe we can keep the schedule > impact contained. > > We are designing a protocol that will be used long into the future, so > having the right architecture is especially important. Our goal has > always been to guide this effort by implementation experience and we > are learning about the deficiencies of the Stream 0 design as we go > down our current path. If the primary concern to this proposal is > schedule we should have an explicit discussion about those relative > priorities in the context of the pros and cons of the proposal. > > The hackathon would be a good opportunity to have a face to face chat > about this in addition to on-list discussion. > > Thanks in advance for taking a look, > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/
- Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Salz, Rich
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ian Swett
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Subodh Iyengar
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Marten Seemann
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lubashev, Igor
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Patrick McManus
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eggert, Lars
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Roberto Peon
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mike Bishop
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Victor Vasiliev
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Subodh Iyengar
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Martin Duke
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christopher Wood
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Leif Hedstrom
- RE: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Gabriel Montenegro
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Ted Hardie
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Philipp S. Tiesel
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Mark Nottingham
- Re: Proposal: Run QUIC over DTLS Eric Rescorla