Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
"Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com> Mon, 11 November 2019 18:35 UTC
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 18:35:51 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Given the architecture supports hybrids of passport and background check models, it seems there could be a rich combination of attesters, verifiers and relying parties where partial results could be supplied by Verifier A to RP B who in turn verifies as Verifier B and produces results B etc... If so, then possibly a TPM encapsulated "claim" gets passed on to multiple verifiers until one that can parse a TPM encapsulation is found. Maybe this is a contrived use case, but it seems reasonable based on what has been discussed so far. By not allowing a TPM encapsulation, it implies there is some other encapsulation besides a "Token" that carries the TPM produced Evidence. -Ned On 11/11/19, 10:23 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote: Laurence provided options as a basis for discussion a while ago. He highlighted that CWT must be signed and illustrated pro & con wrt: * null cipher, * an "unsigned" flavor of CWT * an "arbitrary signature" It might be a valid assumotion that a single "tpm Claim" would have no significant added value, but multiple Claims in a message bundle might (although this might be a solution looking for a problem?). Viele Grüße, Henk On 11.11.19 19:11, Smith, Ned wrote: > Right. This implies the RATS “token” should support existing “binary” > formats as an encapsulation (signed by a second TA where the TPM is a > first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) token. Possibly, the only added > value of the latter is a tag that identifies it as a TPM binary format? > > On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - > FI/Espoo)" <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on > behalf of ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com > <mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>> wrote: > >> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. > I know > others believe that too. > > I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is > practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, > firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common > use, ie: practically all x86 machines, The attestation mechanisms > provided are going to be around for a very long time. > > From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around in > the short term. > >> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I’d be OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to it. > > Agree > > Ian > > -- > > Dr. Ian Oliver > > Cybersecurity Research > > Distinguished Member of Technical Staff > > Nokia Bell Labs > > +358 50 483 6237 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> > *Sent:* 11 November 2019 00:44 > *To:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com> > *Cc:* Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; rats@ietf..org > <rats@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang > module draft > > On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote: > > So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current > draft with a rename for now? > Thanks, Nancy > > I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to > this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps > bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work > here less like ships in the night. > > Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are > of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM > attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more > expressive. I know others believe that too. > > If we don’t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like defining > HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We’re defining an > attestation protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even > though we have consensus on what the other one looks like. > > It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT > support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it. > > Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I’d be > OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it. > > LL > _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list RATS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
- [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for… Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Guy Fedorkow
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: base… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: … Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: … Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: … Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: … Anders Rundgren
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Schönwälder
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Schönwälder
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Schönwälder
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Schönwälder
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Schönwälder
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Schönwälder
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Schönwälder
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Eric Voit (evoit)
- [Rats] 答复: Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)
- [Rats] 答复: Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Schönwälder
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Schönwälder
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- [Rats] 答复: Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Guy Fedorkow
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] 答复: Call for adoption (after draft ren… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Guy Fedorkow
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Smith, Ned
- Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename)… Michael Richardson