Re: [Rats] [Teep] EAT claims needed by TEEP
Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com> Fri, 12 November 2021 14:19 UTC
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, teep <teep@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teep] [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP
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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 14:19:43 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [Teep] EAT claims needed by TEEP
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Reporting this here since not all in RATS were present in the TEEP meeting... TEEP discussed this thread in the WG meeting this morning, where many of the people who weighed in on this thread were present (thanks!) Nancy did two polls during the meeting to get a sense of the room. My takeaway is that TEEP (with various participants from SUIT and RATS who weighed in) believes that RATS should define a claim in the EAT spec, but leave the *values* to be defined by profiles and by vendors (i.e., both categories are needed). The TEEP profile would define values used by TEEP use cases, as would other profiles. Vendors would be able to define vendor-specific values in addition to standard values defined in profiles. Also TEEP had strong consensus that the values should be opaque not structured. As such, some believe a UUID would be better than a byte blob or text string because a UUID helps ensure opaqueness, but that's for RATS to decide if RATS defines the claim and requirements for profiles. Dave From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ira McDonald Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 5:38 PM To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com> Cc: rats@ietf.org; teep <teep@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Teep] [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Hi, +1 to Brendan's point about why "human-readable" strings are a *bad* idea for hardware type identifiers. +1 to Thomas and Jeremy's observations. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Chair - SAE Trust Anchors and Authentication TF Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB Blue Roof Music / High North Inc http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&data=04%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Ce47a9aa2c15a40d4b82208d9a57d1f55%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637722780338856205%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=7Qp8Rgwl%2FWaGlLU%2FqtxiFkIEDAwjCW3np3MNmyCZ2Zs%3D&reserved=0> http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&data=04%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Ce47a9aa2c15a40d4b82208d9a57d1f55%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637722780338866160%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=1SzaaK0DOc%2B410s6fsOto9WD9X6SnXBGCGOakLci%2FuY%3D&reserved=0> mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com<mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com> (permanent) PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 906-494-2434 On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:43 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:tho.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote: > Besides, it looks like we'd be creating a bad precedent because then one > could easily argue that *every* claim is possibly just a byte string or, > pushing this line of reasoning just a bit further, the whole claims-set > could be seen as one single gigantic opaque claim. ! make me think about the multiple levels of "comment" that occured in the JCL days, where commands were comments... Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com<mailto:Brendan.Moran@arm.com>> wrote: > Strings are not the right choice for machine readable fields. There are > extremely good reasons not to use them. Please do not use strings for > model IDs. > When you have a string, it is inevitable that someone in marketing will > realise that it's human-readable. The next step is that it must be > controlled to preserve brand image. When this happens, it is also > inevitable that *wildly incompatible hardware* with *the same function* > will be forced into the same "model number." This has happened multiple times out there. Same box, same case, entirely different CPU inside. > By making model identification explicitly non-parseable by humans, we > prohibit its use as a controllable, human facing identifier. This > ensures that it has a better chance of being used correctly as a means > to distinguish between mutually incompatible versions. ! mcr suggested> "There is no global scheme or format for this claim." -> "The format for this scheme will need to be specified within profiles that use it." -- Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca>> . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list RATS@ietf.org<mailto:RATS@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=04%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Ce47a9aa2c15a40d4b82208d9a57d1f55%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637722780338866160%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=ed8qtRtCzAgHcVRzqrzeX2dt0Pw7jl6W5HBC3hJj8CA%3D&reserved=0>
- [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Simon Frost
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Thomas Fossati
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Thomas Fossati
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Thomas Fossati
- Re: [Rats] [Teep] EAT claims needed by TEEP Brendan Moran
- Re: [Rats] [Teep] EAT claims needed by TEEP Jeremy O'Donoghue
- Re: [Rats] [Teep] EAT claims needed by TEEP Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] [Teep] EAT claims needed by TEEP Giridhar Mandyam
- Re: [Rats] [Teep] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Ira McDonald
- Re: [Rats] [Teep] EAT claims needed by TEEP Dave Thaler
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Rats] [Teep] EAT claims needed by TEEP Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Michael Richardson
- Re: [Rats] EAT claims needed by TEEP Laurence Lundblade