Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01
"Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com> Fri, 03 April 2020 20:55 UTC
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From: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
To: "Georgios Z. Papadopoulos" <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>
CC: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "raw@ietf.org" <raw@ietf.org>, Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01
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Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01
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Yes, forwarding decisions, not routing, thank you. Ethan. From: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 1:42 AM To: Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com> Cc: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; raw@ietf.org; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 Hello Ethan, I might replace routing decisions in your example with forwarding decisions. The routing decisions will be for long period of time while forwarding will be rather on very short notice as you mention. My 2 cents, Georgios On Apr 3, 2020, at 02:21, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com<mailto:eagros@dolby.com>> wrote: Hi Fabrice, Pascal, Do I understand correctly that the OAM requirements of RAW extend a lot further than for wired, due to having to maintain status of the various paths at very short time intervals (e.g. to make routing decisions on very short notice due to transient conditions) and this is part of what differentiates OAM for RAW from OAM for DetNet, and which might justify a separate document because it is inherently a potentially complex aspect of the proposed work of RAW, i.e. much more so than for DetNet/wired? Thanks, Ethan. From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:raw-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Janos Farkas Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 7:47 AM To: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr<mailto:theoleyre@unistra.fr>> Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; raw@ietf.org<mailto:raw@ietf.org>; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com<mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>> Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 Dear Fabrice, My point is that we have “Requirements Document” in the charter. I haven’t seen draft for it yet. Having an OAM requirements section int the Requirements Document is not less readable or referenceable than a separate draft. Actually, there is gain of saving separate intro, security considerations and so on. Best regards, Janos From: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr<mailto:theoleyre@unistra.fr>> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 4:17 PM To: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com<mailto:Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>> Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; raw@ietf.org<mailto:raw@ietf.org>; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com<mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>> Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 Dear Janos, I guess that focusing on the OAM requirements for RAW and more importantly on what makes it so specific is of interest. Merging OAM and general requirements in a single document may be an option, but I’m afraid of having something very big, and complicated to digest by everybody. Pedagogically, shouldn’t we split both documents? What overlapping parts do you envision between both of them? Best regards, Fabrice Le 1 avr. 2020 à 22:40, Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com<mailto:Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>> a écrit : Dear Fabrice and Pascal, Perhaps, I have not elaborated my points too much. I of course also see a lot of value in collecting the OAM requirements for RAW. It is just not obvious to me that this draft is a collection of RAW OAM requirements. For instance, the title is not "OAM Requirements" or alike. A requirements document is listed among the RAW milestones. OAM requirements, clearly phrased as OAM requirements, could be part of the RAW requirements document. I understand this is an early draft. Given the comments, maybe updated text could be good input to RAW requirements document. Best regards, Janos -----Original Message----- From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:pthubert=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:25 AM To: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr<mailto:theoleyre@unistra.fr>>; Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com<mailto:Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>> Cc: raw@ietf.org<mailto:raw@ietf.org>; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com<mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>> Subject: RE: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 Dear all The intended status of the draft is Standards Track. It includes conformance language, e.g.,: " The ping packets must be labeled in the same way as the data packets of the flow to monitor." " These metrics should be collected:” Yes, this is something we have to address. Well that language can be found in informational as well; if it must it must, fact of life that can be observed and described in an informational. Publishing as informational for all I know does not preclude such language. Note that this is not using BCP 14. To me, the draft seems to be solution, hence, outside of the current RAW charter. Actually, we have tried to explain the challenges created by implementing OAM with RAW networks. We tried to not detail a given solution. While we point to existing works for each of ”challenge”, we don’t recommend a specific one. Anyway, maintaining an informational status was our objective. If the draft is too ”solution oriented” in some parts, this is probably something we can address. Let us know the incriminated parts. God for me then... I'm happy that RAW works on this draft for now to ensure that the RAW angle is described in full. It is up to the chairs and ADs to transfer or kindly ask for reviews from DetNet at any stage if that can help. Be safe! Pascal Thinking then on: 1) Is the RAW working group the correct WG for this work? Also in the RAW charter: " RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concepts" As I understand, RAW OAM should be an extension of DetNet OAM, not RAW OAM on its own. The draft does not mention or refer to DetNet OAM. Well, DetNet OAM has not been finished yet, but there are drafts for it: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-oam/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Ddetnet-2Dmpls-2Doam_&d=DwMGaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=9RwbHc_nGQP6aOosUN1klCqT4BogSuXO_iNxnwRiXSI&s=HqbsGSrrFbnjuwycdAaSVeGH03C7CLD8vyI-TaPTX48&e=> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-ip-oam/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dmirsky-2Ddetnet-2Dip-2Doam_&d=DwMGaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=9RwbHc_nGQP6aOosUN1klCqT4BogSuXO_iNxnwRiXSI&s=OIu2lQRwkUH9EzpCg_eVrN-_y5vhosBf-_HlcvBgDkQ&e=> Perhaps the OAM work could be done in the DetNet WG. DetNet OAM could be extended for wireless in the DetNet WG. So, I do not support the adoption of this draft. Regards, Janos -----Original Message----- From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:raw-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Rick Taylor Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:14 PM To: raw@ietf.org<mailto:raw@ietf.org> Subject: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 Hi All, The authors of: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a call for working group adoption of their draft. The link to the draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dtheoleyre-2Draw-2D&d=DwMGaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=9RwbHc_nGQP6aOosUN1klCqT4BogSuXO_iNxnwRiXSI&s=CucUNwCLlx8kqQHtOd6icsSlvmZ2wy3AgiQ7fTXenfQ&e=> oam-support/ This is your opportunity to express your opinion. A decision will be made on/after 13th April. Cheers, Rick and Eve Co-chairs -- RAW mailing list RAW@ietf.org<mailto:RAW@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_raw&d=DwMGaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=9RwbHc_nGQP6aOosUN1klCqT4BogSuXO_iNxnwRiXSI&s=38fo6Ye57mlnj2i9WOdswkMBJWE1rs9pq_SqVXpIR58&e=> -- RAW mailing list RAW@ietf.org<mailto:RAW@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_raw&d=DwMGaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=9RwbHc_nGQP6aOosUN1klCqT4BogSuXO_iNxnwRiXSI&s=38fo6Ye57mlnj2i9WOdswkMBJWE1rs9pq_SqVXpIR58&e=> -- RAW mailing list RAW@ietf.org<mailto:RAW@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_raw&d=DwMGaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=9RwbHc_nGQP6aOosUN1klCqT4BogSuXO_iNxnwRiXSI&s=38fo6Ye57mlnj2i9WOdswkMBJWE1rs9pq_SqVXpIR58&e=> -- RAW mailing list RAW@ietf.org<mailto:RAW@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_raw&d=DwMFaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=gFLTtx6zQQTtxa3273EedKwfkz7tsEHGsRn8hH_bWwU&s=N65uuQweIQrCJ1V-MHqFm7kCGiPVh0Arwsh-cGlB990&e=>
- [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oa… Rick Taylor
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Georgios Z. Papadopoulos
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Xavi Vilajosana Guillen
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Remous-Aris Koutsiamanis
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Rex Buddenberg
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Fabrice Theoleyre
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Janos Farkas
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Fabrice Theoleyre
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Janos Farkas
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Fabrice Theoleyre
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Janos Farkas
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Fabrice Theoleyre
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Georgios Z. Papadopoulos
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Lou Berger
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Fabrice Theoleyre
- Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-ra… Lou Berger