Re: [Raw] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-raw-use-cases-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

[CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <[e-mail]>]

Hi Roman,

I've just uploaded a new revision addressing the remaining points
(related to the Aeronautical Communications). The right version is -11
(-10 addressed some but not all of them). Please see inline below.

Thanks,

Carlos

(skipped text)

>>> ** Section 2.5.
>>>
>>>    Different safety levels need to be supported, from extremely safety
>>>    critical ones requiring low latency, such as a WAKE warning - a
>>>    warning that two aircraft come dangerously close to each other - and
>>>    high resiliency, to less safety critical ones requiring low-medium
>>>    latency for services such as WXGRAPH - graphical weather data.
>>>
>>> I can appreciate the abstract idea of using certain information for safety
>>> critical decision making.  However, can more detail be provided to translate
>>> the “safety levels” to requirements of the data link or the “RAW protocol”?
>>> Mentioned already seems to be “low” vs. “low-medium” latency; and “high
>>> resiliency” which should be read as guaranteed delivery or ability to use
>>> multiple paths/radio technologies?  Or is “low latency” translated into a
>>> design as the subsequent text suggests of “small packets” and resiliency
>>> primarily about “choosing links”
>>>
>> [Carlos] This is a good point to clarify. I will work with the aeronautical experts in the WG to clarify these points and make the text more clear.
>
>
> [Carlos] This is pending, waiting for input from the aeronautical experts in the WG.

[Carlos] We have added some text.

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 2.5.*.  Low latency is stated as a requirement a few times.  Can
>>> this be expressed quantitatively?  Use case owners (and readers) might have
>>> their own subjective idea of what constitutes “low”.
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] Same as above, we will express this quantitatively in the next revision of the document.
>
>
> [Carlos] This is also pending, waiting for input from the aeronautical experts in the WG.
>
>>
[Carlos] We have added some text and a reference to RFC 9372, that
includes more details.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 3.1.
>>>    Such
>>>    deployment is a mix between industrial automation (i.e., Smart
>>>    Factories) and multimedia entertainment applications.
>>>
>>> In what way is “industrial automation” and “Smart Factories” the same in this
>>> example?  One seems to connote automation of operational technology (as opposed
>>> to IT).  The other seems to be a marketing term for OT building things – I’m
>>> not sure.
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] We used the terms not to be synonyms. We refer to industrial automation as automating processes in an industrial environment. And we use "Smart factories" to refer to factories that are actually making use of automated processes. Note that for example a warehouse making use of some automated processes could fall under "industrial automation", but it would not be a "smart factory". Maybe this is too convoluted and it just easier to remove the "(i.e., Smart Factories)" from the original text. Would you agree?
>>
> [Carlos] We have removed the term Smart Factories there and performed some edits to clarify the mix of multimedia and non-multimedia applications.
>
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 3.2.
>>>       Some non-time-critical tasks may
>>>       rather use the cloud (predictive maintenance, marketing).
>>>
>>> -- Marketing is mentioned as an example of a computational workload appropriate
>>> for the cloud but it isn’t noted as an application in Section 3.1.  Perhaps it
>>> should be made more explicit.
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] Good catch. We would add a small description in Section 3.1.
>
>
> [Carlos] We have added some text regarding Marketing in section 3.1 and do some edits as well in the predictive maintenance part.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- If these tasks are “non-time-critical”, why can’t traditional wireless
>>> technologies address them (i.e., why can’t they be solved without RAW)?
>>>
>> [Carlos]  This is specifically addressed in section 3.4.1. Basically, the reasons are that these applications that mostly demand reliability.
>
>
> [Carlos] This is addressed in section 3.4.1. Additionally, we have elaborated a bit more on the point that the network infrastructure should limit the resource consumption for these delay-tolerant applications. Typically, scheduling low-priority flows that use the unused high-priority resources may save energy and bandwidth without impacting the other flows. Wireless networks force us to consider frugality. We have added some text in 3.4 about this.
>
>>
>>
>>> ** Section 4.2.1
>>>    A rare packet loss is usually admissible, but
>>>    typically 4 losses in a row will cause an emergency halt of the
>>>    production and incur a high cost for the manufacturer.
>>>
>>> What is the basis for the “4 losses” (as opposed to say 3 or 5)?  Can this be
>>> cited with a reference?
>>>
>> [Carlos] Honestly, I don't remember, but I will check with the contributors and we will definitely amend the text and/or provide a reference. Thanks for pointing it out.
>
>
> [Carlos] We have rewritten the text a bit to avoid giving an exact number and just explain that multiple losses in a row would be problematic.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 6.1.
>>>       But Wi-Fi has an
>>>       especially bad reputation among the gaming community.  The main
>>>       reasons are high latency, lag spikes, and jitter.
>>>
>>> This statement is suggestion a subjective assessment of the user experience.
>>> Is it technically accurate?
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] I believe it is accurate in the sense that this is indeed the reputation it has. I understand the term "reputation" implies subjectivity, but it is probably a mistake from me as non-native English speaker. I know from experiments with 5G and gaming to basically improve the gaming experience over 4G and WiFi, but I think there are no public documents I can reference. I'll try to find some good reference for this.
>
>
> [Carlos] We have kept it for the reasons above, but we are happy to remove that specific sentence if you don't agree with our interpretation of the term "reputation".
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 6.1.  The use cases seem to overlap:
>>>
>>> -- Can one do “real-time mobile gaming” on a “wireless console”?
>>>
>>> -- Are “cloud gaming” and “wireless console” mutually exclusive categories?
>>> Can’t an Xbox use Wi-Fi 5 to use the “Xbox Cloud Gaming” service?
>>>
>> [Carlos] You are right, they overlap and they are not meant to be mutually exclusive. Should we make this explicit in the text?
>
>
> [Carlos] We have made explicit that they are not meant to be mutually exclusive.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 7.1
>>>
>>> the Spanish traffic control has recently introduced
>>>    a fleet of drones for quicker reactions upon traffic congestion
>>>    related events
>>>
>>> Could a reference please be provided.
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] Yes, we will add one.
>
>
> [Carlos] We have added a ref (in Spanish).
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 8.2.  What is “very low latency” in this context?
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] We will quantify that in the next revision.
>
>
> [Carlos] We have quantified and added a reference.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 9.1.  I don’t have any insight into how a network infrastructure is
>>> built on an ambulance.  Are these systems all really on the same LAN in
>>> practice now?  Is the navigation systems connected to the vital signs sensor?
>>> Don’t these discrete functions all function as their own WWAN?
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] I will discuss these points with the people that contributed that use case to address your comments.
>
>
> [Carlos] We have addressed this with the help of the people that contributed to this use case. Basically this is not fully defined, but what is important is that these systems all have a report-back function.
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 9.1.  What is a “radio-WAN”?  Is this the same as a wireless WAN?
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] I'd say so, but I will check with the contributors of that specific section.
>
>
> [Carlos] We have addressed this with the help of the people that contributed to this use case. We use this term to refer to a radio network in the interior of a network (as opposed to in the fringe). The characteristics of a radio-WAN is that the surrounding networks are likely to be higher capacity than the radio-WAN itself (by orders of magnitude) so the radio-WAN can be expected to be saturated.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 9.4.  What is “high availability” in this context?
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] We will clarify in the next revision.
>
>
> [Carlos] We have addressed this with the help of the people that contributed to this use case.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Editorial
>>
>>
>> [Carlos] Thanks a lot for all the good catches and clarifying comments. We will address them all in the next revision.
>
>
> [Carlos] We have addressed the comments in version -09.
>
> Thanks a lot for the very good review comments!
>
> Carlos
>
>>
>> Thanks a lot!
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>>>
>>> ** Section 1.  Editorial.  “Deterministic Networking in the IP world …” uses
>>> colloquial, consider rephrasing.
>>>
>>> ** Section 1.  Editorial
>>> So far, Open Standards for Deterministic Networking ...
>>>
>>> Why is “Open Standards for Deterministic Networking …” capitalized?  Which of
>>> these are proper nouns?
>>>
>>> ** Section 2.3.  Typo. s/accomodate/accommodate/
>>>
>>> ** Section 2.4.  Editorial.
>>> Thus, making use of wireless
>>>    technologies is a must
>>>
>>> Consider alternative language to this colloquial syntax.
>>>
>>> ** Section 3.1.  Editorial
>>>    *  Emergency: safety has to be preserved, and must stop the
>>>       attraction when a failure is detected.
>>>
>>> Consider being clearer on safety for whom – is it the attraction operator and
>>> visitor/rider/bystander?
>>>
>>> ** Section 3.3.  Editorial.
>>>    Wireless also increases the
>>>    reconfigurability, enabling to update an attraction at a lower cost.
>>>    The frequent renewal helps to increase the customer loyalty.
>>>
>>> This first sentence doesn’t parse for me.  As such, I don’t follow the link to
>>> customer loyalty in the second sentence.  Is the idea here that wireless allows
>>> the attractions to be swapped or adapted more frequently than if a wired
>>> network was used? In turn, this variability of offerings in the amusement park,
>>> attracts repeat visits by customers.
>>>
>>> ** Section 4.2.1.  Editorial.
>>>    Finally, some industries exhibit
>>>    hybrid behaviors, like canned soup that will start as a process
>>>    industry while mixing the food and then operate as a discrete
>>>    manufacturing when putting the final product in cans and shipping
>>>    them.
>>>
>>> The discrete steps of “process industry”, “discrete manufacturing” aren’t
>>> explained; and don’t link to the previous narrative of “process control”,
>>> “factory automation” or “motion control”.
>>>
>>> ** Section 4.2.2.  Editorial.  Consider replacing the colloquial phrases:
>>> --  “Holy Grail of the Industrial Internet of Things”.
>>>
>>> -- “carpeted floor over IP”
>>>
>>> ** Section 4.3.  Editorial. s/a few thousands of flexions/a few thousand
>>> flexions/
>>>
>>> ** Section 4.4.  Editorial.
>>>   RAW mechanisms should be
>>>    able to setup a Track
>>>  Should “Track” be capitalized?
>>>
>>> ** Section 5.3.
>>>
>>>    Deployed announcement speakers, for instance along the platforms of
>>>    the train stations, need the wireless communication to forward the
>>>    audio traffic in real time.
>>>
>>> Why do train stations needed wireless communication (as opposed to wired being
>>> acceptable)?
>>>
>>> ** Section 6.1.  Is “Real-Time Mobile Gaming” assuming that the connected
>>> players and game servers are using the Internet to connect them?  How can RAW
>>> help then?
>>>
>>> ** Section 6.1.  Editorial.
>>> *  Wireless Console Gaming: Playing online on a console has 2 types
>>>       of internet connectivity, which is either wired or Wi-Fi.
>>>
>>> Isn’t the definition of “wireless console gaming” that a wireless connection is
>>> used?  The distinction to wired doesn’t make sense to me.
>>>
>>> ** Section 6.4.  Typo. s/importan/important.
>>>
>>> ** Section 9.  Editorial. Is an “Instrumented emergency vehicle” only scoped to
>>> “emergency medical vehicles”?  If so, I recommend renaming the section.
>>>
>>> ** Section 9.4.  Editorial. Can “radio footprint” be more precisely defined.
>>> Does this mean a seamless hand-off approach is needed between multiple
>>> base-stations of some kind to keep the radio connected?
>>>
>>>
>>>