Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: gaming

"Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com> Sat, 26 October 2019 16:43 UTC

Return-Path: <eagros@dolby.com>
X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4D61200D6 for <raw@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 09:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.001
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dolby.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fihEXX3CTENX for <raw@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 09:43:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from NAM04-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr700111.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.70.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC4381200D5 for <raw@ietf.org>; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 09:43:09 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=cQXD0jgO3SNOYDrbL5bUqguiJIjl8wlbn1nMUSbnzvOnKP71I0KIAMByljr6A9UBZsm5btgoLjaRbFgT1bg9gX3VlHptBvC4hOBWu2DrDPnRzfDGc/vcNJq4D7jN+HJkcJqLCODeCHJ7mqZ92uPI64KtS1KW2wg+Wdp6JMOnv0EwBXQ4KpMqD/94oX23jHVmdxveM0Z8G9T4dKNxtjo5/BTRiDXCsz93ix6mA/+GqNbj/4tt4FXSENYi2gti7sZDHm5H3xfSqJviyN17alYTdSjD2Jxi4IZ/SdnR87pDRpDyekRWLavY3zC1hCNdg667jsvMzGnUFmasDnuHyuQ0SQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=GXbKKHpsFX33KC2Vy4qI4aSYbPanJtAgFeBFb2UE4to=; b=nBm+G7oG4ENYWboZY1sHNx4X5APEFya67qOum9wc78VGmi2LKNyLto4MsyrWP3k7uy+Jqs9bX5RcGuhuBVwv821fVlog1y7HySy1ugkTXWo5EFczW0/YpxX0BXVrpKbGT1kfk3jcJlHLhuzXfoHLWsfaM4cijl/56Io5yP3DiK3L3QwucefrHjMV3SQmVb2s7uDuyOxZRRpaPpKIcwGhm1h1WoIVj43UlbriOGYTuCEx7l1m72UrTKOOdGvo9smZivUKm0DMG4LxtL/I5b1eAPCUwG2gtEJxhutsJTKq8spPKNcbFSEAfezI0lKA59ZryM0pMSo5zYgrYK14w5utoQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=dolby.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=dolby.com; dkim=pass header.d=dolby.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dolby.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=GXbKKHpsFX33KC2Vy4qI4aSYbPanJtAgFeBFb2UE4to=; b=r92vhgEQsO/Ih05OEqo73rUMcF/FVrH/sgHb5vHTA96e5WWjOK5Tfu/N0RgKkUkjdlPuSKSRsxxbaBYHnxQSG8GYzTYvgkPpAMp3fbTWxn1l3Sj+XSUwq6FBbKipqn9pRUMdG8G2qr9YVxFbLEeW8TNliwxtIom2sO0KcDCEuSg=
Received: from BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (52.135.240.140) by BYAPR06MB6088.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.179.158.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2387.24; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 16:43:06 +0000
Received: from BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f8b9:b2ac:1956:c9ba]) by BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f8b9:b2ac:1956:c9ba%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2387.025; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 16:43:06 +0000
From: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
To: John Grant <j@ninetiles.com>, "raw@ietf.org" <raw@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: gaming
Thread-Index: AQHViJ5a0grUOmBiyEKSyCgBuaMzdqdmOs5AgAAD+YCABTfIAIAAM7KAgAASgqCAAQu/AIAAWw1g
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 16:43:05 +0000
Message-ID: <BYAPR06MB43253C2F04D821EA9E4AF46BC4640@BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR06MB432572B2D1AAE15FDB0AA2AFC4680@BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <D85D6B70-5777-40A8-89CD-353BF1578C82@cisco.com> <BYAPR06MB4325B7F3BA0E1B330CDA8840C4680@BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <CALypLp_BtEpjKJy5hsroSKe7-nr7rdbsAXKpci+WMtuRKESTgw@mail.gmail.com> <27397324-3AF6-47A8-A8CC-A4A7FDB8478B@imt-atlantique.fr> <MN2PR11MB35657AB8BEF828C50AC78AB0D8650@MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <BYAPR06MB4325667EB5165C4FE2AAA00DC4650@BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <4831bc27-a606-1668-6d40-8581b41fa498@ninetiles.com>
In-Reply-To: <4831bc27-a606-1668-6d40-8581b41fa498@ninetiles.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com;
x-originating-ip: [73.162.193.175]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d5a9d32e-255f-48fb-f103-08d75a3393a0
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR06MB6088:
x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 3
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BYAPR06MB608849F20DCA871A14737F4DC4640@BYAPR06MB6088.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6790;
x-forefront-prvs: 0202D21D2F
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(39850400004)(376002)(366004)(396003)(346002)(136003)(199004)(189003)(13464003)(11346002)(7696005)(66556008)(66446008)(66946007)(64756008)(66476007)(316002)(26005)(25786009)(966005)(110136005)(52536014)(2906002)(478600001)(99286004)(33656002)(6506007)(76116006)(5660300002)(71200400001)(71190400001)(53546011)(6306002)(9686003)(6116002)(446003)(476003)(86362001)(76176011)(55016002)(256004)(186003)(486006)(305945005)(7736002)(6246003)(66066001)(2501003)(102836004)(8936002)(81166006)(81156014)(8676002)(6436002)(229853002)(14454004)(3846002)(74316002)(781001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR06MB6088; H:BYAPR06MB4325.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:3;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: dolby.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 3evslvsrOjaGK0WH+1yNCj7KwOu9eogWzlarpXjmDB4sZpQHUFEw88IkaX0ZDMTRzbfA/j0qHNufJxswypgYfB0mLuun6vNObhJr4UZmh1t4waABZgbFbUg4EIbHZygGTkqBiCkRWhijwtGn9c4oH34VcH3QoRytGxto1zUUWnzovjnpGvWSpQ+hjQT5/pWPGTiB1w4WXA5+XkiRadNBVkQI/sZDoAvDhkC5JJpNfnN74EMGiRTdl9OwWl45Yr9F4Ao9fSXrEbkjY0NzN1CXffY8gjSLthcxBW4mMvNYQgtok0qcmVQP7DpedjreEff2kpvSh3C5CDM+LMLbMMCpvIKYNCPCV1iC0QlGj5SoIdBwJEl8Xf3RPW8vWopkuhYaTiDTW/lva6/In6uBIMwZOUmUQyhJCAIdx7VMp5zt155zClhAX4S+AQ6lKKDfnvvsNA1pQ7qefJlSox4DMl9BEINcRgdhGJt3vbq1YPwQ/G8=
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: dolby.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d5a9d32e-255f-48fb-f103-08d75a3393a0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Oct 2019 16:43:05.7367 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 05408d25-cd0d-40c8-8962-5462de64a318
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: appAC0sgJV2Bp0V5ZQECz3OyLmnVhdX1xGx//t6IMB7S8u+X1sKHKcjVS/6eBr4Vb5wO0SDuJi1oeDcFnQANkg==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR06MB6088
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/raw/QrwJV3P_vJ-4o4Ub6h3BQmRuK2A>
Subject: Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: gaming
X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: reliable and available wireless <raw.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/raw>, <mailto:raw-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/raw/>
List-Post: <mailto:raw@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:raw-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw>, <mailto:raw-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 16:43:13 -0000

Hi John,
Understood, and as you may recall we actually had text in the DetNet Use Cases draft which said 
"WiFi is pervasive but does not provide guaranteed timing or delivery of packets, and thus is not [usable for DetNet]."
However we removed that text because we were informed by the IEEE WiFi group that they are working on improvements to WiFi to reduce the inherent latency and make it more deterministic, so they didn't want us to rule it out for future applications. There is a summary of those improvements here: 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-raw-technologies-03#page-10

So we are cautiously optimistic that in time, WiFi will be usable for e.g. AES67 and DetNet. 
Best,
Ethan.


-----Original Message-----
From: Raw <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of John Grant
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2019 4:03 AM
To: raw@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: gaming

On 25/10/2019 20:08, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote:
> Just to reiterate that most of the “techs” we mention don’t seem to 
> have the bandwidth to do pro audio – AFAICT it is just WiFi. Is that 
> really true? Somehow it should be pointed out so as not to mislead 
> people - sufficient BW for the use case is a requirements for a radio 
> link.
AES67 (standard for audio over IP) isn't used over WiFi because there's too much delay.

--
John Grant
Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England
+44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455
http://www.ninetiles.com

--
Raw mailing list
Raw@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw