Re: [Raw] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-raw-ldacs-10: (with DISCUSS)

["Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <[e-mail]>]

Hi Eric,

Doesn’t RFC 8789 mean that the IETF cannot publish a document with “consensus boilerplate” set to “No”?

Regards,
Rob


From: iesg <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
Sent: 19 April 2022 09:49
To: Erik Kline <[e-mail]>; John Scudder <jgs=[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail]; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[e-mail]>; Alvaro Retana <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; The IESG <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-raw-ldacs-10: (with DISCUSS)

You may have read my ballot by now. Also sympathetic to Alvaro's point. This document deserves publication, but I would strongly recommend setting the "consensus boilerplate" to "No".

-éric

From: iesg <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of Erik Kline <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Date: Tuesday, 19 April 2022 at 07:22
To: John Scudder <jgs=[e-mail]<mailto:jgs=[e-mail]>>
Cc: "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Pascal Thubert <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, Alvaro Retana <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, The IESG <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-raw-ldacs-10: (with DISCUSS)

Even though I just balloted No Objection, I find myself somewhat sympathetic to Alvaro's observation here.  I do think this document is well worth publishing.  However, its relationship to IETF work is not entirely clear:

  * Section 6 Requirements are not requirements for raw (nor any other IETF work) but more requirements for LDACS itself.

  * The IPv6, LISP, and other IETF technology parts all appear to be largely "TBD" at the moment.

However, I don't know enough about raw to have a terribly strong feeling at the moment, and it seems LDACS did get itself a mention in the charter... (not that that's terribly conclusive one way or the other).

:-/

On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 2:37 PM John Scudder <jgs=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi, Alvaro.

I’m a little unclear as to your reasoning, let me see if I have it right:

1. You’re making the assertion that it’s not possible for the IETF to “reach rough consensus on a document that describes someone else's technology”. As I understand it, you’re not citing an authority for this — you just think it’s self-evident, like the statement “rain doesn’t fall up”.

2. Following from the previous premise, you point out that if that’s the case, RFC 8789 says we can’t advance the document.

So the discussion we (the IESG) need to have is whether #1 is true. If there were some authority that said as much, that would make the argument open-and-shut, but if there’s not (and I’m not aware of one), it may come down to a matter of opinion, which isn’t very satisfying.

In any case we agree that the document should be published in some stream.

Thanks,

—John

> On Apr 18, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Alvaro Retana via Datatracker <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>
> Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-raw-ldacs-10: Discuss
>
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> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-raw-ldacs/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XwKY_jfrpG5svnN1jiQ4u_aggXi4Lwk0Go_0oBNMG5XuDHnDkQKcbAM0naAhvA$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-raw-ldacs/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XwKY_jfrpG5svnN1jiQ4u_aggXi4Lwk0Go_0oBNMG5XuDHnDkQKcbAM0naAhvA$>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> [Authors:  Thank you for the work!  There's no action required from you.  My
> opinion below is to be discussed with the IESG.]
>
>
> I found this document very informative, and there is value in publishing it as
> an RFC.  However, I don't believe it can pass the rough consensus bar set by
> rfc8789 to become an IETF Stream RFC.
>
> As mentioned by the Shepherd, this document is a "description by matter
> specialists of an externally-defined link-layer".  The technology described is
> an overview of work done elsewhere.  There was no discussion of the content on
> the mailing list, which shows only two messages from non-authors: one asking
> for more information; the reply was a pointer to the LDACS external
> specification [1] -- the other was the single WGLC reply from the document
> shepherd [2].
>
> I want to discuss this question with the IESG:  Can the IETF reach rough
> consensus on a document that describes someone else's technology?  This
> document is akin to many others that have been published through the ISE as,
> for example, a vendor's implementation of a specific protocol.
>
> My opinion is that documents that describe someone else's technology cannot be
> published as IETF RFCs given the requirement in rfc8789.
>
>
> [1] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/raw/iyext4Ub8MgUjNYYPE7XOPpq1Y0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XwKY_jfrpG5svnN1jiQ4u_aggXi4Lwk0Go_0oBNMG5XuDHnDkQKcbAO5FpQ62A$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/raw/iyext4Ub8MgUjNYYPE7XOPpq1Y0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XwKY_jfrpG5svnN1jiQ4u_aggXi4Lwk0Go_0oBNMG5XuDHnDkQKcbAO5FpQ62A$>
> [2] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/raw/L-ByflWTn_3vcGC8NNfMO-blkJU__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XwKY_jfrpG5svnN1jiQ4u_aggXi4Lwk0Go_0oBNMG5XuDHnDkQKcbAOCzEgDOw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/raw/L-ByflWTn_3vcGC8NNfMO-blkJU__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XwKY_jfrpG5svnN1jiQ4u_aggXi4Lwk0Go_0oBNMG5XuDHnDkQKcbAOCzEgDOw$>
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