Re: [Resolverless-dns] Paper on Resolver-less DNS

Erik Sy <sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> Fri, 23 August 2019 09:37 UTC

Return-Path: <sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
X-Original-To: resolverless-dns@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: resolverless-dns@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46ABA1207FC for <resolverless-dns@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 02:37:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.199
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KKUDS0n-NCDZ for <resolverless-dns@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 02:37:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-hamburg.de [134.100.9.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8F81120125 for <resolverless-dns@ietf.org>; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 02:37:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292EDC07 for <resolverless-dns@ietf.org>; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 11:37:06 +0200 (CEST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-hamburg.de
Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-hamburg.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailhost.informatik.uni-hamburg.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 1dcdeYShLBse for <resolverless-dns@ietf.org>; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 11:37:05 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from svs26.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (svs26.informatik.uni-hamburg.de [134.100.15.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Erik Sy", Issuer "DFN-Verein Global Issuing CA" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: sy) by mailhost.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DB754C06 for <resolverless-dns@ietf.org>; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 11:37:04 +0200 (CEST)
To: resolverless-dns@ietf.org
References: <CAHbrMsBhR1yaLxQk7wZk54Jdf5nvkS03KC3UTae0Famu2+SV8g@mail.gmail.com> <4568720.uvMTqBdgP4@linux-9daj> <fb12f102-714d-95cc-c6cc-0871a2df9f50@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> <34813218.VKkrhzyXsx@linux-9daj>
From: Erik Sy <sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFzVyS4BEADnUWBPWNK8CNxDj8QarMioEQsyEiLkpsln4zxw1cxhTnK+ZHd4wTOh1BZf GVmGZ7wdb/NLiQbENv44okX4mYgJjt32gbVg8ssfScfTEO9PVBgLi5SDtLAxLk8TjF7ETIkG NUWgAQm6Pw6EowjLjMJ4y3fahPcypqtfuO1cxF86pPYAsSG+9iuInpBQoZwuvZu3SLUMXB9l +Xwiy77wEpvPg49pNQhbFqlIZXAHTLyEIlrxG41xXbTt7P5kH333c1cRD//EeC2oEjZhgCBh B4ObFpgL4JxSo71MZFdSDOWfiwMq3kXOwJnPNq9xzcWEItVyLK30fXWt5uZ3YfUcZGpGXv1Y Kl4monIru9NFVSW35FlhHtpgUKdQBKJMeuc1ckZr00zRtd1tf/69rdnjJngR+5RJZE3ykDx4 bJ4P75nqeDUe8adc4S0GeExEgsjVl8QZpCgIrjicA4MQERJKaA3bmCWy5YfCqsZYfbFXrcmq sZopkMTI2X5ZsA3y+jjWlmfDo3Tdu9ddfF8BSB0nTbaPLnJCs878T8HE+Lx9y6QyHlfZ0BJx IuepITZInhbH2c/X5Ipw37+YjNCwzlCOozJDZ/tTj8suMpAKdt4qq3OR1PKyhlilUBiQcYDu 4HfGffihD91Bwxz89YsAtej6EvWLjSfF4fUucFMh9N4GSVQK/QARAQABtCZFcmlrIFN5IDxz eUBpbmZvcm1hdGlrLnVpbi1oYW1idXJnLmRlPokCVgQTAQoAQQIbAwUJB4YfgAULCQgHAwUV CgkICwUWAgMBAAIeAQIXgBYhBADP3q0kgaL0XCmyn7pmQSEb9ifsBQJc1dhqAhkBAAoJELpm QSEb9ifs580P9AiLD49H+bZhNwXZYAXD236D6mKBimXo7EnM8D+v6TXiBKweH35XkKjkHtfU nosHYybfQoV8Rjcdg4lZ8+E/N/7Jk0dcQ6N6gUY1YvMw+t5AiEXMZdz6tQEjwrU+FVlBMN7j WKDpumE4PjkKlxh4IPc9HCgmI0G3uq859nIBvHEpPyCc6z1++9zq+oqP8vUtFLqmuAhQJoOc JSyKv7FYnGhGRnGJGPwkdqwGfS6fZaavhKDXgBcvULXKF7gThZp6kAHG7QhEeNmwL4l/UTOA oAu1pwTfelMwkRWwXyZjgnSqY59ejD6lcFdxZ51O4qIfPmxViaORhNcguD9SvdGw6kdEGNIA az+bd8UfVltz2EkWb+KPbDi6bpa12Zr2Sz+8AakDRhEQ6gSLHicK1cyimhsf66i4SjlUMefX Gq2ImH2xJTMSZi2GN/0JtK/KaBfwArvxoNlWfp3aP97fmXeqNWZVJo2T0+Vvr3hKs00XhU/S 82sbVeFmAJMho5SL4GO+CYEYBQUuIUj131JBfgw3o/YB/WuTD+ELuM+VKP0loXPcgfE4UlEM Ik8yJmzKbRRXfwhCpvoc5T0GFtmQ9szMO9cnll+BiDK3qHNtfMsY09PgjCHnOzwhvYMf7H+3 g0dH3HyIY5Id1YPS88GANpqiG+K1d3vwr2dTER5ZUBuu+pq5Ag0EXNXJLgEQAKRNM1sPfiLC nEVME84YDsek0M+5svW6T1ggJL4dAgUdwYyujSrDdEujBr1AJaVHuJzMKLvqAIQqSvid0qVM zH32rx70LIkaLJE6iGbf/ckHHA1bpgzDRY9dcLj/J/B0F94BFx1oSavnP6uD1qRODnc4c9rZ s/GfmdnTxaC84MG26SWua2ckk81+ZP2qenXnebz1Krv0oRvObGW3QzAAjyg7Fdlb9UqRApmI FbM8xtTtNyls+ISruC8KbYTxv5wPegm817iLox9WpXkkJNbM6I/Nn887yvxsZghbiuoJaqJl OQqkm1wlMroQEIVIfZbe9+iSB7wc9KisxAOxsoFTfOeIwNfgH6HMvzNo+yffLnvjNO3v/Yzx utfP4FL00lVl53aTWj+Hq6Bym1EX+ZSSb+LhDW5MzXig4PYJKgZf2L+fr2SfDoiZMY6Nbirt DMAS2TpKaV4Jgc8576qkhwhG7o9GKPmNWV55lo+sFsGIXCsVB5zWjCq/FUJLg+dE+FR6aIR7 q2npur4rz9os69POEbTcIKn3vfbQ8ytaTuRfFGeTq2VjHXzi/qH49+i5sWLgvZug31f0dDhs PKDFdSTKrv2DFaKW9OsAbPoqqT3krqE0ho8iMbOaPqpEUn8z+cR7Ozuz3BE/ZedetOh/W8Kx K04rYuWGo4bZmf42QoKfWM6vABEBAAGJAjwEGAEKACYWIQQAz96tJIGi9Fwpsp+6ZkEhG/Yn 7AUCXNXJLgIbDAUJB4YfgAAKCRC6ZkEhG/Yn7HwtD/98u7M3mR5ktzk2aCkS7grO7PMbEFqS 0ycCOV+3P3u6gMy0conDgywA+niXVmzO4UsD2u7ncE8Y27Gc+nx0Q0MgmZ7Nju/rlLc/xisU Q++0MLhvwWQU6NRIO9hhaPK8gQzkvTtxRWxKljh7fDqlb9L02rCJ5jZ7zpRxGrRanQxkB7Z6 StY2AAaI6SMH6RDV45J2uVT+Fg5qenA3wqgxeY/V2avEFNHMwbs1v3pUmnPo5KTLvaMbMDaf PKu8akQezpO4CK3ugxV3tMQ43RFT4kdl1XQyaKEffLQUyoUyFHGJfq66+01t4cMu4/CEC7D+ S7pkOn7ANuwgilfINHVZ95Z1HOdadMYvt1Q37qmOaK34K6kHLbTglBIb2eBEp/OcUlOcrFEu 7yq1TU6QSvGA9QZVeAfttyA9YqEawB3j11uJm3xMknqS3SzTE0JxZNyz1Qri6OLnP3uVaXJj BCiiGZf6sgnCa7/JlYrrEIF3ukWQutUfG+1XVq85/gPYnmTlenp4PCIuQVJT+ldG3hPNS1un qX0iEGiV8XdwXy9Gg49QAhNOFn6llW17VP279NvEVa6eRAm5w4mp4L3FgpbFlKkCHZXzMx/7 wuYPd9pj+olW2uDid279lKsUGt0I7MVyad311Fd1WnQQrAuEw6ZduDNZMxnhRV4x0PxwnGEY Ye+WbA==
X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N11101
Reply-To: sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de
Message-ID: <ae355776-a1bb-cf23-f380-133439661d1f@informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 11:37:03 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <34813218.VKkrhzyXsx@linux-9daj>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms060101020909070102080808"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/resolverless-dns/5cq73iDtUYLsGCB4gmsgTrbQAXo>
Subject: Re: [Resolverless-dns] Paper on Resolver-less DNS
X-BeenThere: resolverless-dns@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Resolverless DNS <resolverless-dns.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/resolverless-dns>, <mailto:resolverless-dns-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/resolverless-dns/>
List-Post: <mailto:resolverless-dns@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:resolverless-dns-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/resolverless-dns>, <mailto:resolverless-dns-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 09:37:10 -0000

On 8/22/19 23:50, Paul Vixie wrote:
>
> On Thursday, 22 August 2019 21:11:58 UTC Erik Sy wrote:
>
> > On 8/20/19 23:12, Paul Vixie wrote:
>
> > >> I assume that by
>
> > >> referring to DNSSEC and DANE, you do not want to claim that some
> popular
>
> > >> client software is strictly enforcing a validation of DNS records
> using
>
> > >> DNSSEC and DANE, right?
>
> > >
>
> > > caching resolvers everywhere, do this.
>
> >
>
> > This study shows that only about 12% of the resolvers use DNSSEC to
>
> > validate the records [1].
>
>  
>
> i think that in 2017 when that report was published, their 12% was
> very well distributed, geographically and topologically, and that it
> represents a disproportionate share of lookup transactions.
>
I read this as an argument to use one of the more popular resolvers.

>  
>
> > > the economy depends on them doing so.
>
> >
>
> > I find that only 0.9% of the .com domains are signed [2] and having a
>
> > signature does not mean that they can be successfully validated.
>
>  
>
> i suggest you broaden your search for knowledge. for example, this web
> site may be of interest, along with the monthly reports posted to
> dns-operations@ by the same authors.
>
>  
>
> https://stats.dnssec-tools.org/
>
>  
>
Anyway, lets assume that all domains and resolvers perfectly support
DNSSEC and that we have transport encryption between the client and the
resolver. In this scenario, the client still needs to trust the resolver
to provide the correct address. Furthermore, having a correctly resolved
IP address does not solve the problem of communicating to the correct
server, which is usually the intention of the client.
>
> > > if RDNS isn't client software from your point of view, you'll dismiss
>
> > > these assertions.
>
> >
>
> > RDNS requires the client to trust the used recursive resolver.
>
>  
>
> not for DANE work flows. stub validation is not widely implemented or
> well supported by DNSSEC, but it works, and existing DANE TLSA clients
> do this.
>
In my view, DANE TLSA is an approach to do public key pinning. The web
already collected a lot of experience with public key pinning as this
can be also done using other protocols than DNS. In summary, the Chrome
browser deprecated this mechanism last year [1]. Assuming that DANE TLSA
would be widely supported on client systems, I think that Chrome would
not start using this mechanism to do public key pinning.

1:
https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/he9tr7p3rZ8/eNMwKPmUBAAJ

>  
>
> > In my view, the client should be able to validate the DNS records
>
> > independently of the recursive resolver.
>
>  
>
> we agree.
>
Great! Any plans except for resolver-less DNS how we can do that which
has a chance of being accepted by the browser vendors?
Erik


>  
>
> > I think there is a security
>
> > benefit for clients in using TLS server authentication to validate DNS
>
> > records at least in the context of web browsing.
>
>  
>
> we disagree, for reasons i won't repeat here a second time.
>
>  
>
> -- 
>
> Paul
>
>